#Brexit

[Johnny Vodka]

And whose to blame there? If you accepted the result it would of been a different story.

Well, wait and see what sort of deal we get, if we get a deal. But that's far from the only reason I think this is going to be awful.

I don't particularly accept the result for Scotland anyway, for reasons I outlined earlier. What Scotland wants need to be further tested.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Wealthy Tory donors buying EU citizenship for themselves, documents reveal

Cyprus ‘golden passport’ scheme can secure EU nationality for just €2m

www.independent.co.uk

 

[W_I_C]

What are the reasons for remainers on here voting remain then?

Well, I guess because many of us recognise that you instigate change through being an engaging, active participant and not through alienating yourself. That co-operation and collaboration achieve more than putting up a wall. The suggestion it was all or nothing was one of the biggest hoodwinks of the entire debacle.

We see the bias in the over influential and under scrutinised press, and understand the ulterior motives behind the lies, exaggerations and mistruths they print.

Many of us understand the complexities and imperfections of the EU, but equally we see greater issues, corruption and injustice in our own political and class system.

Most of us dont wish to sub-divide by our place of birth or language we speak (enough of that nonsense exists as it is), but instead look for the common ground in spite of any of these factors. We see that we have far more in common with economic migrants then we do with our privately educated, fortunate inheriting, wealth-hoarding banker overlords.

We also saw the opportunity and tremendous benefits of being in the union, and cant understand why people would want to throw that away instead of working towards a more mutually beneficial arrangement. No matter which way any of us voted, after we leave, we all have less freedoms, less rights, less protection

 

[Kim Wrong Un]

I'm done with arguing this tbh. it's going to happen now, so these are yesterday's arguments. January 31 is a real gamechanger. Thereafter, the evidence will speak for itself... My only point worth considering is that there are people all over Europe from countries with very dark histories who have let go of the past, taken down the frontiers and have given their kids much easier lives as a result of being able to freely travel, study and work in different cities. This not only enhances your CV but exposes you to people you might never otherwise meet. I don't think that is such a bad thing. The Brits voted out, that is their right and I don't see who really benefits but we're beyond that now... FWIW I've met people from all over Europe studying, holidaying and working and for all the bad rep of shitty tourists and football fans, apart from a couple of one-off incidents in the past, I never experienced any real hostility as a Brit, which contrasts with the hostility fired off in the other direction + At a time when tech is making the world smaller and barriers are coming down, it seems a bit retro to be putting borders back up but there you go... you as a country are basically engaged on a strategic course which has never been attempted before by any liberal democracy in history. A social and economic experiment, which hasn't even begun to be understood in all its complexity. Let us know how you get on,

 

[Woodsy Ibiza 25]

I'm done with arguing this tbh. it's going to happen now, so these are yesterday's arguments. January 31 is a real gamechanger. Thereafter, the evidence will speak for itself... My only point worth considering is that there are people all over Europe from countries with very dark histories who have let go of the past, taken down the frontiers and have given their kids much easier lives as a result of being able to freely travel, study and work in different cities. This not only enhances your CV but exposes you to people you might never otherwise meet. I don't think that is such a bad thing. The Brits voted out, that is their right and I don't see who really benefits but we're beyond that now... FWIW I've met people from all over Europe studying, holidaying and working and for all the bad rep of shitty tourists and football fans, apart from a couple of one-off incidents in the past, I never experienced any real hostility as a Brit, which contrasts with the hostility fired off in the other direction + At a time when tech is making the world smaller and barriers are coming down, it seems a bit retro to be putting borders back up but there you go... you as a country are basically engaged on a strategic course which has never been attempted before by any liberal democracy in history. A social and economic experiment, which hasn't even begun to be understood in all its complexity. Let us know how you get on,

the EU has worked out really well for Greece, Italy, Spain etc hasn’t it.The countries are almost bankrupt. Guess these countries are going to go cap in hand to Germany soon to ask to be bailed out?

Further to this Italy, Romania and Bulgaria to name a few have real bad race issues. Some of the football players have suffered abuse and I’m not taking about 1 or 2 idiots from the crowd.

Also, can you explain what benefits Romania and Bulgaria bring to the UK public?

Once the UK leave, the whole thing is dependant on Germany. If Germany ever decided to leave, that’s the end of the EU. No more free money for the smaller countries.

 

[Zapclub93]

Well, I guess because many of us recognise that you instigate change through being an engaging, active participant and not through alienating yourself. That co-operation and collaboration achieve more than putting up a wall. The suggestion it was all or nothing was one of the biggest hoodwinks of the entire debacle.

We see the bias in the over influential and under scrutinised press, and understand the ulterior motives behind the lies, exaggerations and mistruths they print.

Many of us understand the complexities and imperfections of the EU, but equally we see greater issues, corruption and injustice in our own political and class system.

Most of us dont wish to sub-divide by our place of birth or language we speak (enough of that nonsense exists as it is), but instead look for the common ground in spite of any of these factors. We see that we have far more in common with economic migrants then we do with our privately educated, fortunate inheriting, wealth-hoarding banker overlords.

We also saw the opportunity and tremendous benefits of being in the union, and cant understand why people would want to throw that away instead of working towards a more mutually beneficial arrangement. No matter which way any of us voted, after we leave, we all have less freedoms, less rights, less protection

well said @white_isle_calling ... spot on

 

[Kim Wrong Un]

the EU has worked out really well for Greece, Italy, Spain etc hasn’t it.The countries are almost bankrupt. Guess these countries are going to go cap in hand to Germany soon to ask to be bailed out?

Further to this Italy, Romania and Bulgaria to name a few have real bad race issues. Some of the football players have suffered abuse and I’m not taking about 1 or 2 idiots from the crowd.

Also, can you explain what benefits Romania and Bulgaria bring to the UK public?

Once the UK leave, the whole thing is dependant on Germany. If Germany ever decided to leave, that’s the end of the EU. No more free money for the smaller countries.

I live in Spain. It isn't nearly bankrupt. Provide a source please.

 

[Kim Wrong Un]

I've always been really honest about the EU. It has a lot of faults, tensions, bad laws and regulations. It is very difficult to find a common path for so many disparate countries, cultures and economies. I think it survives though primarily because people still remember the horrors of what preceded it....

 

[Woodsy Ibiza 25]

I've always been really honest about the EU. It has a lot of faults, tensions, bad laws and regulations. It is very difficult to find a common path for so many disparate countries, cultures and economies. I think it survives though primarily because people still remember the horrors of what preceded it....

At least you admit the EU has faults. But from all these conversations on Brexit. I haven’t seen one argument from a remainer that tells people what benefits the EU brings to the UK public. I can see why the smaller countries want to join the EU as they can travel to countries that pay higher wages. But I’m never going to earn what I do now going to other Eu countries unless it’s germany or Holland for example, who salaries are comparable to the UK

 

[Johnny Vodka]

I think it survives though primarily because people still remember the horrors of what preceded it....

That's precisely why my late gran voted to stay in. When you see some of the anti-EU, anti-immigrant stuff, as much in other countries as in the UK, you hope people remember. Hungary looks like a right nightmare. You could also argue that Britain is somewhat responsible for the more recent trashing of the middle east and should face up to its responsibilities when it comes to refugees.

 

[W_I_C]

We benefit from access to the workforce, whether they be in our fields picking potatoes at 5am or tending to our sick and elderly in hospitals - and everything inbetween

 

[Woodsy Ibiza 25]

We benefit from access to the workforce, whether they be in our fields picking potatoes at 5am or tending to our sick and elderly in hospitals - and everything inbetween

Wouldn’t it to be better to have a point based system like Aus?
If the uk are short of a specific occupation we let people apply for jobs. If there’s no requirement for certain skills , and people can’t fund themselves then they can’t come here unless it’s for a holiday.

 

[matter]

I think it survives though primarily because people still remember the horrors of what preceded it....

None of those horrors were in Britain. We’ve never had a Nazi, Fascist, Marxist or Francoist government in charge.

 

[matter]

And let’s not kid ourselves that the EU has kept Europe from horror, when we had ethnic cleansing in the Bosnian genocide.

 

[W_I_C]

Wouldn’t it to be better to have a point based system like Aus?

A points system is certainly one worth exploring in my opinion, but I'm not convinced it will solve the problem of low skilled workers, which we need, regardless of whatever nationality they happen to be

I think by the time we're throwing visas in the direction of Asian countries in order to seal desperately needed trade deals, we'll find ourselves in a position where we've swapped low-skilled EU workers for low-skilled non-EU workers, which is fine, but then we've done so at the sacrifice of our freedom to work within the EU ?‍

 

[djedwardsmith]

At least you admit the EU has faults. But from all these conversations on Brexit. I haven’t seen one argument from a remainer that tells people what benefits the EU brings to the UK public. I can see why the smaller countries want to join the EU as they can travel to countries that pay higher wages. But I’m never going to earn what I do now going to other Eu countries unless it’s germany or Holland for example, who salaries are comparable to the UK

myeu.uk – see what the EU has done for you

The EU invests around £5 billion a year in the UK. Search by your address or postcode to see some of the investments near you.

www.myeu.uk

Easy one this. Whack your post code in and you'll see what the EU has done for you and your area.

 

[matter]

myeu.uk – see what the EU has done for you

The EU invests around £5 billion a year in the UK. Search by your address or postcode to see some of the investments near you.

www.myeu.uk

Easy one this. Whack your post code in and you'll see what the EU has done for you and your area.

Erm it’s our money in the first place.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

which is fine, but then we've done so at the sacrifice of our freedom to work within the EU ?‍

And it's probably young people that will 'suffer' the most, as they're more likely to be unskilled. Can't just take off to another EU country to work in a bar for a year and sample life and work in another country when you're at an age when that's a relatively easy option. AFAIK the pro-Brexit vote was skewed towards older people, taking away rights they would have been able to enjoy themselves. I find that incredibly sad and more than a little selfish.

It's not all about money.

 

[Kim Wrong Un]

None of those horrors were in Britain. We’ve never had a Nazi, Fascist, Marxist or Francoist government in charge.

Correct - BUT the channel islands did and they had their share of collaborators - we kid ourselves that we were somehow superior to the French and Belgians when actually we were only saved by the sea and Goring's aerial uselessness (and eventually Stalin). The Brits had the bombed cities but never had to face the Gestapo/SS barbarity and the camps NOR soviet occupation (a whole other level of horror) - THIS is why the EU exists. Like I said above I'm not a massive fan of many, many aspects but the idea of us all going back to the pre-war years does scare me because if there's no adult to control the class, we know what happens

And let’s not kid ourselves that the EU has kept Europe from horror, when we had ethnic cleansing in the Bosnian genocide.

...but Yugoslavia wasn't in the EU - name a single military conflict between EU states since 1945 or since the Treaty of Rome was signed ? Nearly all conflicts have been in Asia or the Arab world. Given that the Middle East is a constant tinderbox and that the Yanks have lost interest, and that China is getting scarily powerful, it feels like madness for people to be undermining the EU (for all its flaws), because who else is going to stand up as one?

*soz for 'history lesson' - not intended to patronise, just to illustrate my point

 

[matter]

Correct - BUT the channel islands did and they had their share of collaborators - we kid ourselves that we were somehow superior to the French and Belgians when actually we were only saved by the sea and Goring's aerial uselessness (and eventually Stalin). The Brits had the bombed cities but never had to face the Gestapo/SS barbarity and the camps NOR soviet occupation (a whole other level of horror) - THIS is why the EU exists. Like I said above I'm not a massive fan of many, many aspects but the idea of us all going back to the pre-war years does scare me because if there's no adult to control the class, we know what happens



...but Yugoslavia wasn't in the EU - name a single military conflict between EU states since 1945 or since the Treaty of Rome was signed ? Nearly all conflicts have been in Asia or the Arab world. Given that the Middle East is a constant tinderbox and that the Yanks have lost interest, and that China is getting scarily powerful, it feels like madness for people to be undermining the EU (for all its flaws), because who else is going to stand up as one?

*soz for 'history lesson' - not intended to patronise, just to illustrate my point

Patronise all you like.
The Channel Islands are not in Britain. I never said Yugoslavia was in the EU. There was ethnic cleansing on mainland Europe in the 90’s and the EU done nothing about it.