Politics Discussion (& Gossip)

I don't have a clue of course.. ok ask the Finns, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Poles, Czechs.. they'll all tell you who the bad guys are here. Ask the parents of the thousands of kids forcibly deported to indoctrination camps in Russia, ask the thousands of orphans, torture victims, raped women, ask all of them if I've got this wrong
 
burton said:
All I’m saying is all of the horrible things happening aren’t just because “tyrant’s crazy landgrab”. The idea that we are good and russia is evil is a naive oversimplification. We the west bear much responsibility in the destruction of many poor countries and unfortunately Ukraine is suffering now in what is just the latest proxy war in a long history of them
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You still aren’t telling us anything after proclaiming to know the none populist version of events. It’s not a proxy war, it’s a war. Russia invaded Ukraine. Ukraine is defending and trying to push them out, supported by nato weaponry and intelligence. This is not the Cold War, it’s very much physically active.

Im by no means an expert on the subject, but I don’t think you have a handle at all on why this has happened or scale of what has happened. It is very much about Russian land grab with the aim of demonstrating it is a world power. And it clearly had ambitions to recreate the USSR wherever possible. Thankfully they won’t happen due to the fortitude of the Ukrainians and support of nato.

Think I will leave this thread here. It takes me back to that Elrow Covid super spreading lunatic that drove most people barmy on here as he used any means to discredit reality so he could have a good time.
 
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"Ukr killed tens of thousands" source?

Look I've also studied history. The Russia that emerged out of the USSR was chaos, the mafia filled the void, soldiers weren't paid properly, democracy was seen as useless when inflation meant you couldn't afford cabbages

It made sense that Putin would step in with a popular strong man pitch after the shambolic Yeltsin years. And yes the West played their hand very badly in those initial years, feeding Russian paranoia and resentment.

But it isn't true that Ukrainians bar a tiny number are all Nazis or that they persecuted anyone in the East, other than insist on their own language. The separatists did give Putin a pretext though to stick his oar in, which was his goal all along. Fear of NATO expansion was also handy propaganda too.

The evidence of the last year is of violent retribution for not towing the Putin line. And if it's UKR today, who tmrw? No wonder everyone's queuing up to join NATO
 
burton said:
And Russia stated Ukraine absolutely must remain neutral in all of that, but we’re nevertheless trying to pull them into NATO too, which is a red line for Putin. We’ve been provoking him for no good reason
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I really never wanted to get into this debate. But just re-read this quote, and decide if you think it’s an acceptable position.

We are talking about an independent democratic country [Ukraine] that actually has those things called free elections.

I’ve got nothing else to add.
 
burton said:
The US promised Russia that NATO wouldn’t move closer to their borders. The Americans broke that promise and have been growing NATO and staging nuclear capable missiles in those countries that surround Russia. And Russia stated Ukraine absolutely must remain neutral in all of that, but we’re nevertheless trying to pull them into NATO too, which is a red line for Putin. We’ve been provoking him for no good reason.

Dombass region is highly highly Russian speaking, Russian descendant territory. Same for crimea. I’ve been to Ukraine 3 times including twice to crimea. I’ve stayed with the people there. They are ALL Russian. These regions even had their own vote that resulted in 90% wanting to join Russia more than 10 years ago. Western Ukraine has been in civil war with these Russian-Ukrainian people for 10-15 years. The Ukrainians have killed 10s of thousands of these Russian speaking Ukrainians prior to the Russian invasion. Some of the Ukrainians fighting in that area are literal self proclaimed nazis. It was chaos before putin ever stepped in. The American deep state and the military industrial complex love being at war, which is why they always are at war. They are not trying to find a resolution or striving for peace in the region, very much the opposite. The way the news tells it is fake. Just like the Middle East. The Ukraine war is still at the “they have weapons of mass destruction” phase of things. But time will tell a different story, that is if we don’t all die from nuclear war. A nuclear war that the west absolutely provoked when they could have played peacemaker

That all being said. If I am fighting in this war I would fight for Ukraine. That is my fathers country. If America is fighting I’d be in their side as it is my mothers country. I am lucky to live in neither country but that is where my allegiance would lie. But the point is there is NUANCE to all this. So when you’re chirping frickin nina kraviz on a rave website at least consider maybe she thinks your country ain’t so innocent either and your talking down to her is misplaced especially as all we’re supposed to be doing here is dancing together …
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Ok. You suckered me in. One last post.

NATO didn’t expand after the agreement.

Donbas maybe Russian speaking. That does not imply supportive of a Russian annexation.

The referendums in the east you refer to have been discredited by international observers.

No one is saying USA don’t engage in provocation and propaganda. And the Middle East is an entirely different situation.

You talk of fake news…you clearly take your news from Russia’s top news shows hosted by the likes of Solovyov, Skabeeva, Simonyan.

As for Kraviz, it’s all already been said. Except, she is big business and so is djing. Using public interest activities to garner support is a long standing tactic of aggressive, authoritarian states. If you want to listen to her and fund her, knowing who she supports and what they stand for, that’s your choice.
 
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My only reply to this thread.

Crimea is no russian descendant territory. Has never been and will never be.
 
mr_why said:
Her new album just gone in @ #5 in the UK. Not sure would have charted quite so high without coverage.
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Dunno, hard to say. I think the publicity will have definitely raised her profile, but she's a highly respected artist (at least amongst people whose opinion I listen to and care about) and maybe bigger than many realise... Will those who've followed the "cancelled" outrage on outlets like GB News and The Daily Mail be likely Roisin converts? Got to remember some fans will have deserted her too.
 
The Sun God said:
The tragedy is she’ll never get recognised for her actual MUSIC now. Reduced to yet another vehicle for people to project their ideology
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I see your point but I think the people that appreciate this album as a great album would have done anyway. If the ridiculous furore brings it to a wider (some paying) audience that’s a good thing. Those reducing it to a vehicle for ideology would never have been actually listening anyway.

Impressed that Haslam was one of the few that spoke out against the hysteria.
 
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