Freedom of Speech/Religious Extremism
- Thread starter Buckley
- Start date
Ibiza-girlie
New Member
Let me first of all say this: I am a true believer of respect for all nations and religion.
As a Dane (cartoon was made by danish national newspaper) I didnt find the cartoons to be peticularily relevant for any kind of journalism or story, didn´t find them to be very thoughtful and I completely understand if someone might have been slightly offended. But I use the word slightly because this whole thing has been blewn outta porportion.
IF the cartoons had been about Jews, Hindues, Christians, Catholics or whatever- I sincerily doubt that any embassys has been burnt to the ground as it is happening in the middle east. Let alone the fact that all Danish products have been banned ,and that people have been evacuated and are being attacked simply because they are Danish....I dont think any hindu, catholic or any other member of any other religion would do this. But thats because there´s a significant difference between the moderate muslim and the ekstremist muslim, who uses/abuses allahs name to cause such trouble.
This is also where I must state something really really important. We CANNOT fight fire with fire, and the Danish people have many muslims living in DK that are sorry that the whole thing got so far. And many Danes who DONT symphatise with what was drawn in that paper. some (less intelligent and less tolerant people) are using the bible's infamous words of "an eye for an eye" to justify their own respons and actions/payback methods because of whats happening now - (some narrowminded Danes won't shop in muslim stores and some people ever organized to burn the Koran on the city hall square the other day - idiots ) I RESENT taking an eye for an eye.....we´ll be every bit as stupid as the fundamentalists who are behind the attacks, which brings me to the NEXT important issue!
NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE FUNDEMANTALISTS - So we cant go about, saying that every muslim is to blame, as they cannot blame every Dane for what one single newspaper felt they neede to express.
Personally I would never be offended if someone was to draw a picture of Jesus in a provocative way. My religion doesnt mean that much to me, and we as christians might not think as much about religion as f.i muslims do.
But what is worse you might ask: drawing a (what the newspaper felt was) an innocent cartoon, critisising Jiihad (holy war) - or burning down embassys and boycutting import of Danish goods, hereby punishing ALL Danes for that newspaper´s actions. As I mentioned before, not all Danes felt those drawings were appropriate.
I try to be tolerant and open. After all: I dont want to blame all muslims in the world for some peoples reactions in the middle east. I was saved by a muslim family when I was stuck in NY during 9-11 - I had no shelter and was responsible for a group of scared young people from work. This muslim family picked us up at the shelter and provided a home and hospitality, food, comfort and everything you can imagine - during those 10 days it took for us to finally get home. I will never forget that hospitality. I remember the father of the family sitting in front of the tv screeen saying "oh no, here comes another 30 years of blaming all the muslims for this attack - although many of us recent those terror actions" - It must be so hard to deal with, as a muslim when you´re met with that prejudice.
In a way, you might say, it very much resembles the christian story of the good samaritan who helped a complete stranger. So we can learn from eachothers religion if we´re only open and willing to take in. I still feel no pity for those muslims who burn down embassys and threaten to kill us in our own surroundings - because ive seen what muslims and Islam can be like, when therés sympathy and understanding. And that kind of terror and torture should not be associated with anything thats got anything to do with islam. to me, thats abusing the religion.
The group of muslims who are offended by the cartoons, see the danish papers print as an insault - "we" see it as a critical piece of journalism, printed because it CAN be printed in a country where freedom in all aspects are valued. "We" get mad, because we dont think its got anything to do with religion-issues. "We" get mad because we shouldnt be told what to say in our own country by anyone from any etnic/religious minority.
I think this whole thing is a huge misunderstanding - caused by cultural clash and caused by misenterpretation on both sides. BUT what we print in a christian country - we should never be punished for that. We have freedom of speech and freedom of press. We will ALWAYS defend that right and our government should never say sorry for something it didnt have anything to do with. Sadly the people who are attacking embassys, boycutting us and threating to bomb us - dont know how our westernized society works. They dont understand that the government has nothing to do with it. Besides: what we do in OUR country sohuld be our right and our decision alone. I just hope that the newspapers will take what they print into concideration next time ,for all peoples sake. Freedom of speech and press works works both ways. We, in DK, even have a nazi radio !! (with antisemetic content) everybody thinks its disgusting - but as mentioned. If the freedom of speech and press is there, we must take the good with the bad in all situations.
amen and salaam!
IG
As a Dane (cartoon was made by danish national newspaper) I didnt find the cartoons to be peticularily relevant for any kind of journalism or story, didn´t find them to be very thoughtful and I completely understand if someone might have been slightly offended. But I use the word slightly because this whole thing has been blewn outta porportion.
IF the cartoons had been about Jews, Hindues, Christians, Catholics or whatever- I sincerily doubt that any embassys has been burnt to the ground as it is happening in the middle east. Let alone the fact that all Danish products have been banned ,and that people have been evacuated and are being attacked simply because they are Danish....I dont think any hindu, catholic or any other member of any other religion would do this. But thats because there´s a significant difference between the moderate muslim and the ekstremist muslim, who uses/abuses allahs name to cause such trouble.
This is also where I must state something really really important. We CANNOT fight fire with fire, and the Danish people have many muslims living in DK that are sorry that the whole thing got so far. And many Danes who DONT symphatise with what was drawn in that paper. some (less intelligent and less tolerant people) are using the bible's infamous words of "an eye for an eye" to justify their own respons and actions/payback methods because of whats happening now - (some narrowminded Danes won't shop in muslim stores and some people ever organized to burn the Koran on the city hall square the other day - idiots ) I RESENT taking an eye for an eye.....we´ll be every bit as stupid as the fundamentalists who are behind the attacks, which brings me to the NEXT important issue!
NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE FUNDEMANTALISTS - So we cant go about, saying that every muslim is to blame, as they cannot blame every Dane for what one single newspaper felt they neede to express.
Personally I would never be offended if someone was to draw a picture of Jesus in a provocative way. My religion doesnt mean that much to me, and we as christians might not think as much about religion as f.i muslims do.
But what is worse you might ask: drawing a (what the newspaper felt was) an innocent cartoon, critisising Jiihad (holy war) - or burning down embassys and boycutting import of Danish goods, hereby punishing ALL Danes for that newspaper´s actions. As I mentioned before, not all Danes felt those drawings were appropriate.
I try to be tolerant and open. After all: I dont want to blame all muslims in the world for some peoples reactions in the middle east. I was saved by a muslim family when I was stuck in NY during 9-11 - I had no shelter and was responsible for a group of scared young people from work. This muslim family picked us up at the shelter and provided a home and hospitality, food, comfort and everything you can imagine - during those 10 days it took for us to finally get home. I will never forget that hospitality. I remember the father of the family sitting in front of the tv screeen saying "oh no, here comes another 30 years of blaming all the muslims for this attack - although many of us recent those terror actions" - It must be so hard to deal with, as a muslim when you´re met with that prejudice.
In a way, you might say, it very much resembles the christian story of the good samaritan who helped a complete stranger. So we can learn from eachothers religion if we´re only open and willing to take in. I still feel no pity for those muslims who burn down embassys and threaten to kill us in our own surroundings - because ive seen what muslims and Islam can be like, when therés sympathy and understanding. And that kind of terror and torture should not be associated with anything thats got anything to do with islam. to me, thats abusing the religion.
The group of muslims who are offended by the cartoons, see the danish papers print as an insault - "we" see it as a critical piece of journalism, printed because it CAN be printed in a country where freedom in all aspects are valued. "We" get mad, because we dont think its got anything to do with religion-issues. "We" get mad because we shouldnt be told what to say in our own country by anyone from any etnic/religious minority.
I think this whole thing is a huge misunderstanding - caused by cultural clash and caused by misenterpretation on both sides. BUT what we print in a christian country - we should never be punished for that. We have freedom of speech and freedom of press. We will ALWAYS defend that right and our government should never say sorry for something it didnt have anything to do with. Sadly the people who are attacking embassys, boycutting us and threating to bomb us - dont know how our westernized society works. They dont understand that the government has nothing to do with it. Besides: what we do in OUR country sohuld be our right and our decision alone. I just hope that the newspapers will take what they print into concideration next time ,for all peoples sake. Freedom of speech and press works works both ways. We, in DK, even have a nazi radio !! (with antisemetic content) everybody thinks its disgusting - but as mentioned. If the freedom of speech and press is there, we must take the good with the bad in all situations.
amen and salaam!
IG
Last edited by a moderator:
i find the whole thing totally gobsmacking i wholeheartedly agree with
what really angers me is that when ....
a bunch of loons kidnap and behead a women who has spent her life living with and helping
not a single Muslim voice is heard saying that this is a blaspheme and an insult to their religion...
yet they go mr ballistic .... burning, destroying, inciting, shouting in their thousands.... over a few funking drawings....
what a bunch of hypocrites...
if thats what they are all about then my oh my what a terrible bunch of losers they really are
Buckly and others....
what really angers me is that when ....
a bunch of loons kidnap and behead a women who has spent her life living with and helping
Muslims... shouting "god is great" ... and then put this terrible act on the internet claiming it was done "in the name of god and the prophet Mohamed
"....not a single Muslim voice is heard saying that this is a blaspheme and an insult to their religion...
yet they go mr ballistic .... burning, destroying, inciting, shouting in their thousands.... over a few funking drawings....
what a bunch of hypocrites...
if thats what they are all about then my oh my what a terrible bunch of losers they really are
thats not religion or politics or anything other than stupid moronic nothingness
Last edited by a moderator:
I too would like to join Buckleyism. As a strict atheist and PhD student in New Testament, I love these topics. While we should have consideration for the diversity of belief, that is too idealistic to actually entertain and, yes, it may be considered wrong in the Islamic paradigm of "correctness" to depict the Prophet in such a way as these cartoons did, but that is according to their paradigm and if I don't subscribe to it, doesn't that mean I can depict it? Why is their theological paradigm forced upon me? But then there is of course that thing Morbyd said about Kant (if you follow his nonsense about the categorical imperative...). It is a slippery slope. No one can tell anyone what to believe, but when someone claims to follow the biblical timeline of the earth so strictly that they believe the earth is only 6000 years old when there are actual fossils (vs. a man-made document that has TWO creation stories in it...what they can't make up their minds???), that is just ridiculous and think that is what the astute Buckley is arguing against more specifically.
In my studies, we are New Testament scholars in a historical sense. Therefore, we don't deal with faith. Faith is like attraction, it is subjective and unexplainable why some have a tendancy toward religion and others away from religion. It is when those of faith try to meddle in historical fact and science to twist it to their own point of view that problems arise and that is what needs to be addressed in the world and those are the people that need to be educated.
How much to join by the way? Any new religion has to have a financial obligation...8)
In my studies, we are New Testament scholars in a historical sense. Therefore, we don't deal with faith. Faith is like attraction, it is subjective and unexplainable why some have a tendancy toward religion and others away from religion. It is when those of faith try to meddle in historical fact and science to twist it to their own point of view that problems arise and that is what needs to be addressed in the world and those are the people that need to be educated.
How much to join by the way? Any new religion has to have a financial obligation...8)
Buckley
Well-Known Member
Anjali said:
You're in for nothing as long as you except the post of 'Chief Disseminator of Facts'.
I really want to respect other people's beliefs, but I tried again last night to engage believers in conversation about this and they just won't. They refuse address the contradictory nature of the major religions and say they just believe. To me, it's the effect of brainwashing. It's Orwell's Doublethink - 'I believe something (idea A), that contradict's something else (idea B) but I'm not saying that idea B is untrue.' I can only conclude that admitting that someone else's belief that is based on irrational faith is untrue would open their own to the beliefs to the same questioning.
Last edited by a moderator:
Buckley
Well-Known Member
Beckiboo said:Maybe they're just bored of you banging on about religion all the funkin time
I finally find something where I think others could teach me something and they won't discuss it. Cruel world eh?
(Ok, I don't really think they can teach me
and I think their refusal to discuss is more to do with an inner refusal to question.)grego said:
silvia said:Can you translate for me, please?
En realidad, la cuestión clave es que Jesus y Mohammed son recrear sobre la tierra como la imagen de Dios, así que hay siempre dos de cada tres fes que negaron quien es el profeta absoluto. (Si el profeta absoluto es Jesus, judaísmo y Islam lo refutan. Si el profeta absoluto es Mohammed, cristianismo y judaísmo lo refutan. Si no hay un profeta absoluto, cristianismo y Islam lo refutan)
Sil, lo siento porque la traducción es muy literal y probablamente no tiene sentido.
Buckley said:
I liked Silvia's point to you on this. I think that your reply sums up how some people will review religion and why would this be wrong?
I will be honest and say that I have not read every post word for word, but from your posts Buckley you put across that religion must be something that people were brainwashed into from a young age, do you not feel that there thoughts/beliefs could have been built in the same way your love for your partner was?
You also seem to be looking for a 'believer' to convince you that 'there way is best' - what is the information that you are wanting?
Buckley
Well-Known Member
Angie24 said:
I want someone to adress the contradiction between the religions. Only one or none can have the correct version of creation and of who or what higher power there may be. But the basis of each belief is the same - it's just faith. So, if for example Christian's are correct in what they belief and therefore must admit that Muslims, for example, are incorrect, why do they believe that to be the case?
Buckley said:
Who is to say that one is right and not another and why do you feel that is has to be so?
I believe that this is what causes the problems - our ego takes over and instills this 'we must be right, they must be wrong' attitude, which can fundamentally stop any sort of flow of belief. I do think that underneath it all the origin is the same, but that sections of community have told their own story around it.
I disagree that by ridding ourselves of religion, we rid ourselves of this kind of IMO irrational violence.
Religion is but one of the tools for greedy or power-hungry men to manipulate the undertrodden, the poor and the angry. If you want to rid the world of 'religious' wars, then you must look at politics and economics. Naz11sm could not have taken such a hold in a time of economic prosperity and islamic extremism could not have taken hold in an environment of individual freedom and material abundance. If religion wasn't used as an excuse to blame others for hardship, then the leaders of the time would find something else - racial, class-based etc.
I've quite recently stopped calling myself Christian, due mainly to a distrust of all organised religion. I don't trust men in power to tell us what is right and wrong. Whether I believe in an omnipotent being or not I am yet to decide - however many scientists believe in God, so I don't think science and spiritualism are necessarily mutually exclusive.
I don't think ridding the world of religion will solve our problems - I'd say it's a combination of economic, political, primal and cultural factors, often disguised and rationalised by "religion". Take away religion and it would simply need a new disguise - like patriotism!
Religion is but one of the tools for greedy or power-hungry men to manipulate the undertrodden, the poor and the angry. If you want to rid the world of 'religious' wars, then you must look at politics and economics. Naz11sm could not have taken such a hold in a time of economic prosperity and islamic extremism could not have taken hold in an environment of individual freedom and material abundance. If religion wasn't used as an excuse to blame others for hardship, then the leaders of the time would find something else - racial, class-based etc.
I've quite recently stopped calling myself Christian, due mainly to a distrust of all organised religion. I don't trust men in power to tell us what is right and wrong. Whether I believe in an omnipotent being or not I am yet to decide - however many scientists believe in God, so I don't think science and spiritualism are necessarily mutually exclusive.
I don't think ridding the world of religion will solve our problems - I'd say it's a combination of economic, political, primal and cultural factors, often disguised and rationalised by "religion". Take away religion and it would simply need a new disguise - like patriotism!
silvia said:But talking from own experience, I never never was told that Christians own the absolut truth. And I went to a jesuit school
i went to catholic school and although i was never told that christianity is the absolute truth, it is clear in Christian teaching that Jesus is the conduit (conducto) by which christianity exists. Therefore, if you don't accept jesus as the 100% ultimate prophet, then you are denying the basis on which christianity exists.
with the abrahamic religions, you either believe 100% otherwise you are a hypocrite. they cannot be any acceptance of the other two religions otherwise you actually refute you own religion.