Freedom of Speech/Religious Extremism

[Buckley]

It comes down to belief. If you believe what you've been told then I see no problem with you living your life the way you want to, even if to others your beliefs are based on lies/unproven statements etc.

At the end of the day Buckers you can't prove there wasn't a Jesus anymore than a Catholic can prove there was, the only thing we can be sure of is that no one will ever really know whether religion is legit or not.

That's why there's so much conflict about religion, no one can prove anything that they believe in, and that goes the same for Aethism, you dis-believers have nothing to convince the believers that they're wrong, it's just whatever you personally believe

But I don't claim to believe there wasn't a Jesus, I claim to not know and claim that if there was he no was more or less likely to be Son of God than I am*. You believe it because you've were taught it as fact from a young age. If you were taught from pre-school age that the Moon was made of cheese and had it drummed into from a daily basis you'd believe that too.

*OK, I'll let you in on a secret. I'm not the Son of God

 

[naddyz]

I agree with buckers, I fail to see how people can honestly believe the bible when it was clearly written by men who were less well informed than the current/previous pope.

IMO all religions are essentially cults that are acceptably less 'evil' than organisations classed as cults today, i.e. they don't make you commit suicide or give all your money to them. Basic premise of a cult? recruit others, in return for your time/money etc you will go to heaven or whatever, please leave your human nature to question what people tell you at the door. What's the difference between that and religion?

Religion is essentially an evolutionary tool to create social groups to ensure survival, but it's something we don't really need any more.

 

[Buckley]

ps. Didn't mean any offence by the cheese Moon comment Miss Boo. None taken I hope?

I just meant that the 'facts' you were taught and the way you were taught them could convince you of anything.

 

[Buckley]

That's why there's so much conflict about religion, no one can prove anything that they believe in, and that goes the same for Aethism, you dis-believers have nothing to convince the believers that they're wrong, it's just whatever you personally believe

But if you believe Christianity is fact, then millions of people are being taught something else as fact that is incorrect. Agreed?

 

[Beckiboo]

But I don't claim to believe there wasn't a Jesus, I claim to not know and claim that if there was he no was more or less likely to be Son of God than I am*. You believe it because you've were taught it as fact from a young age. If you were taught from pre-school age that the Moon was made of cheese and had it drummed into from a daily basis you'd believe that too.

*OK, I'll let you in on a secret. I'm not the Son of God

I dont really believe or dis-believe to be honest, I take religion with a pinch of salt, I dont blame people who dont believe a word of it, but then again I think if people do want to follow a religion and it gives them peace of mind to follow such rules then so be it.

 

[silvia]

But I don't claim to believe there wasn't a Jesus, I claim to not know and claim that if there was he no was more or less likely to be Son of God than I am*. You believe it because you've were taught it as fact from a young age. If you were taught from pre-school age that the Moon was made of cheese and had it drummed into from a daily basis you'd believe that too.

*OK, I'll let you in on a secret. I'm not the Son of God

Buckley you sound like a bit of a extremist atheist or agnostic


And I'm with Becki in this one. YOu need proves to belive in things, that's fine, but don't expect to get any proves about religion, it has much more to see with the irrational than with the rational.

 

[x-amount]

I dont really believe or dis-believe to be honest, I take religion with a pinch of salt, I dont blame people who dont believe a word of it, but then again I think if people do want to follow a religion and it gives them peace of mind to follow such rules then so be it.

Likewise.

I just don't like it when "they" try to dictate to me (or anyone else/any minority) how I run my life based on these IMO lies.

Let's face it, the treatment of women (and gays) in Muslim countries (for example) is horrific. Anyone who disagree's is, quite frankly, an idiot IMO.

 

[Buckley]

Buckley you sound like a bit of a extremist atheist or agnostic


And I'm with Becki in this one. YOu need proves to belive in things, that's fine, but don't expect to get any proves about religion, it has much more to see with the irrational than with the rational.

But if you believe one 'truth' and others believe another and you've all got the same amount of proof (i.e.bugger all) then you can't all be right. It's a no-brainer. So assume there is a creator, which I'll admit is possible. Is it Allah, God, or the FSM? How do you choose without proof? By the chance of where and to whom you were born?

Believers refuse to engage on this because if there's no disproof of alternative theories and no proof your own then you don't really 'know' what you claim to.

 

[Beckiboo]

Buckers you're typing faster than I can think slow down

Like Sil says, its fine if you need proof that what you've been taught is the truth, but there are many people out there who are quite happy to go along and believe their religion, it gives them peace of mind to follow this. I think if they are happy doing it then so be it, who are we to preach to them that their religion is wrong or based on lies?

IMO it doesnt hurt to have a little bit of faith, I mean Spurs fans still believe their side will get into Europe, that's obviously the biggest fabrication of the lot!

 

[silvia]

But if you believe one 'truth' and others believe another and you've all got the same amount of proof (i.e.bugger all) then you can't all be right. It's a no-brainer. So assume there is a creator, which I'll admit is possible. Is it Allah, God, or the FSM? How do you choose without proof? By the chance of where and to whom you were born?

Believers refuse to engage on this because if there's no disproof of alternative theories and no proof your own then you don't really 'know' what you claim to.

I am not discussing it, I'm discussing why don't you just respect other's belives, even if they are irrational and can't be proven.

 

[Buckley]

Buckers you're typing faster than I can think slow down

Like Sil says, its fine if you need proof that what you've been taught is the truth, but there are many people out there who are quite happy to go along and believe their religion, it gives them peace of mind to follow this. I think if they are happy doing it then so be it, who are we to preach to them that their religion is wrong or based on lies?

We're intelligent beings (ok stubborn gits in my case) who are capable of amazing things. It's a waste that people are encouraged not to think because we're scared of the unknown.

They're happy to follow because the capacity to question, to rationalise to reach the huge potential within us all has been stunted by childhood indoctrination. I think it's a tragedy.

 

[Buckley]

I am not discussing it, I'm discussing why don't you just respect other's belives, even if they are irrational and can't be proven.

Should I respect Scientologists belief that schizophenrics don't need medication? That women should be silent during childbirth? Are you happy for children to be taught these things as fact?

If not why not?

 

[x-amount]

I am not discussing it, I'm discussing why don't you just respect other's belives, even if they are irrational and can't be proven.

But then now you're being petty.

What about you slating Real Madrid/Chelsea performances or whatever? Shall we jump on the moral "respect" crusade there too?

 

[Beckiboo]

We're intelligent beings (ok stubborn gits in my case) who are capable of amazing things. It's a waste that people are encouraged not to think because we're scared of the unknown.

They're happy to follow because the capacity to question, to rationalise to reach the huge potential within us all has been stunted by childhood indoctrination. I think it's a tragedy.

But in other peoples eyes you could be the tragedy, for living your whole life with no belief, no God to aspire to etc.

See what I mean? It's just everyone is different, believes in different things and has different ideas of whats right and wrong. I think diversity is good, otherwise Hitler would have got his own way and we'd all be white, blonde haired blue eyed, hetrosexual Christians!

 

[silvia]

But then now you're being petty.

What about you slating Real Madrid/Chelsea performances or whatever? Shall we jump on the moral "respect" crusade there too?

What has football to see with religion?

 

[grego]

Buckers, I fear your one-man quest to teach the world the wrongs of organized religion is doomed to failure

as said previous i wholeheartedly agree with you buckers. however, morbyd is spot on. we are essentially discussing the most zealously fought and divisive debate of the last 400 years or so, well at least since the enlightenment, but clearly it predates this period as well - namely, the materialist/realist versus spiritualist/idealist debate. science v religion.:x

my point being that over 400 years and enough literature to have destroyed a couple of rainforests has been discussed on this issue and still the battle rages on............and with no sign of ever ending (look at impact of DVC )

i've read too much Marx and know too much about religion to entertain the credence of religious belief systems. Therefore, I hereby confirm my accession to Buckleyism.

 

[Buckley]

But in other peoples eyes you could be the tragedy, for living your whole life with no belief, no God to aspire to etc.

See what I mean? It's just everyone is different, believes in different things and has different ideas of whats right and wrong. I think diversity is good, otherwise Hitler would have got his own way and we'd all be white, blonde haired blue eyed, hetrosexual Christians!

That's too far a conceptual leap Sil. Racial and sexual diversity is a world apart from religious diversity and major races and sexual orientations are not mutually exclusive. You can be a gay black man and still be happy enough that a white staight woman is as she is. You cannot be a Muslim without think Christians beliefs are incorrect and vice versa.

 

[djchewie]

football is a form of religion to some people.

 

[Buckley]

i've read too much Marx and know too much about religion to entertain the credence of religious belief systems. Therefore, I hereby confirm my accession to Buckleyism.

One down. I'll PM my bank details for your *ahem* 'joining fee'.

 

[grego]

What has football to see with religion?

what......don't you know the often misquoted saying by Marx, as exemplified by Morbyd above

"football is the opium of the people"