Freedom of Speech/Religious Extremism
- Thread starter Buckley
- Start date
Ibiza-girlie
New Member
and today the fundamentalist put a bounty on the drawer´s heads....
100 kilos of gold, and the talibal has offered 5 kilos of gold for each norwegian or danish person killed in afghanistan,. talk about being primitive monkeys!!!!
100 kilos of gold, and the talibal has offered 5 kilos of gold for each norwegian or danish person killed in afghanistan,. talk about being primitive monkeys!!!!
Buckley
Well-Known Member
coley said:
Everything's a belief of course. But some 'truths' contradict the others. Not knowing doesn't. I haven't denied the possibility of a creator but it's only a possibility. As yet, it hasn't been proved either way.
But, stop me if I'm wrong, you believe you know how creation happened, right? And if you're correct (as a Christian) then the Jews and Muslims are incorrect. Agreed?
sandi said:You all still banging on.
I believe that cats are the higher being, transfering data through the cat cosmos.
I just skim read most of this thread. Some interesting viewpoints and absolutely amazing that a thread about religious extremism lasted 6 pages with no one arguing!Buckley, i agree with all you've said. Utter crock of BS (all of them!)
You know what, I think that people of the Western Civilization should watch more the Star Trek series and learn about the Prime Directive and apply it to this world. No one interfeered with the natural evolution of the Western society and a lot of blood was shed and lifes were killed for us to reach the present state.
People chose to evolve after a lot of mistakes, but the people who form this society chose it. So why do we think we have the right to interfeer with other societies in the first place? Are we doing it for the better?
But we need them for the oil and to buy our products and...
"In the Star Trek fictional universe, the Prime Directive, Starfleet's General Order #1, is the most prominent guiding principle of the United Federation of Planets. The Prime Directive dictates that there be no interference with the natural development of any culture with whom Starfleet comes into contact. In such situations, the Prime Directive forbids any involvement with a civilization without the expressed consent or invitation of the lawful leaders of that society, and absolutely forbids any involvement whatsoever in the internal politics of a civilization. It also forbids any effort to improve or change in any way the natural course of such a society, even if that change is well-intentioned and kept totally secret." -> taken from Wikipedia.org
People chose to evolve after a lot of mistakes, but the people who form this society chose it. So why do we think we have the right to interfeer with other societies in the first place? Are we doing it for the better?
But we need them for the oil and to buy our products and...
"In the Star Trek fictional universe, the Prime Directive, Starfleet's General Order #1, is the most prominent guiding principle of the United Federation of Planets. The Prime Directive dictates that there be no interference with the natural development of any culture with whom Starfleet comes into contact. In such situations, the Prime Directive forbids any involvement with a civilization without the expressed consent or invitation of the lawful leaders of that society, and absolutely forbids any involvement whatsoever in the internal politics of a civilization. It also forbids any effort to improve or change in any way the natural course of such a society, even if that change is well-intentioned and kept totally secret." -> taken from Wikipedia.org
coley
Active Member
Buckley said:
I don't believe in their beliefs as a total just as much as you probably don't mine as a christian. I can only speak from my own personal experience of my faith and the fact that it helps keep me in check.
I have always for as long as I can remeber believed in creation and the grace and power of God. I wasnt brought up in a christian family either. It was a decision I made when I was 27 to get baptised influenced by my own personal needs and not outside influence.
You have to look into the religious networks I guess to get a clearer picture of true current affairs and answers to you questions because that kind of information would never be broadcast in mainstream media. There are christian science organistions that have proven time and again the theory of creation as oppose to evolution.
For any theory to stand it has to have evidence and the evidence of Darwin is flawed ( ie gaps etc) in genetic coding which points to a creator.
Fossils of deep sea and land animals being found high up mountain sides pointing to a global flood etc.
To be honest I try not to get overly involved in the scientific approach to my faith because I pray and get answers which is evidence for me8) . Alot of people get internal conflicts when discussing this as the desires of the flesh and mans pride are constantly wresting with mans spiritual desire for inner peace and guidance.
It's like you kind of really want to believe and submit but your pride is sayin" what about me, what about my plans, what about what I want.
Thats my paradigm for now then.
I have read through most of these posts - in which nearly half of them we have Buckley repeatedly stating, that its obvious to him that with any two contradictory statements or contradictory teachings from various faiths, then at least one version must be incorrect.
I find it disturbing that theists debating him are unwilling to accept this basic fact.
It is no more difficult to understand than these simple sums.
2+2 = 4
2+2 = 5
Obviously only one sum adds up.
Yet why wont/can`t some people just admit and declare
" yes I know what you say makes sense, and although I have no rational or factual reason to believe in my religion I still believe anyway".
It is this blinkered approach that causes this string to roll on.
It is my opinion that religion should not be taught to minors in school, or at least not until they are old enough for rational thought and reasoning.
Likewise, faith in any religion that is based on our parents beliefs is misfounded although understandable, but even those who aren`t strong believers like myself and I guess the now infamous Buckley will still have a leaning towards a certain faith.
If you don`t agree Buckley, then consider this - I was once approached in the street by a woman trying to "convert" me.
When I told her that I was an atheist she replied "You`ll believe when you`re dying"
She had a point!
Although I would be prepared to clutch at straws in certain circumstances (like immenent death or sick offspring) and rediscover my faith, I find it strange that like many people, I cannot even be true to myself - let alone others.
Hope I havn`t offended anyone here, that is not my intention.
I find it disturbing that theists debating him are unwilling to accept this basic fact.
It is no more difficult to understand than these simple sums.
2+2 = 4
2+2 = 5
Obviously only one sum adds up.
Yet why wont/can`t some people just admit and declare
" yes I know what you say makes sense, and although I have no rational or factual reason to believe in my religion I still believe anyway".
It is this blinkered approach that causes this string to roll on.
It is my opinion that religion should not be taught to minors in school, or at least not until they are old enough for rational thought and reasoning.
Likewise, faith in any religion that is based on our parents beliefs is misfounded although understandable, but even those who aren`t strong believers like myself and I guess the now infamous Buckley will still have a leaning towards a certain faith.
If you don`t agree Buckley, then consider this - I was once approached in the street by a woman trying to "convert" me.
When I told her that I was an atheist she replied "You`ll believe when you`re dying"
She had a point!
Although I would be prepared to clutch at straws in certain circumstances (like immenent death or sick offspring) and rediscover my faith, I find it strange that like many people, I cannot even be true to myself - let alone others.
Hope I havn`t offended anyone here, that is not my intention.
coley
Active Member
In a world where left sided brain activety of facts,figures and legalism are enthroned, many people still search for something that cannot be attributed to hard evidence alone. To even begin to accept an existence beyond the material you have to accept that you have a soul aswell.
Right sided thinking being all things emotional/spiritual. We as humans need balance and anything extreme either way can leave us feeling empty or stark raving bonkers
No wonder people get annoyed with faith when they try to apply the principles of logic to it using overly simplistic "apparent" truths in order to dissmiss something their soul yearns for but something there pride dosen't.
On the face of it Trying to understand Faith+Using logic= same conclusion...No God/
Right sided thinking being all things emotional/spiritual. We as humans need balance and anything extreme either way can leave us feeling empty or stark raving bonkers
No wonder people get annoyed with faith when they try to apply the principles of logic to it using overly simplistic "apparent" truths in order to dissmiss something their soul yearns for but something there pride dosen't.
On the face of it Trying to understand Faith+Using logic= same conclusion...No God/
Buckley
Well-Known Member
coley said:In a world where left sided brain activety of facts,figures and legalism are enthroned, many people still search for something that cannot be attributed to hard evidence alone. To even begin to accept an existence beyond the material you have to accept that you have a soul aswell.
Right sided thinking being all things emotional/spiritual. We as humans need balance and anything extreme either way can leave us feeling empty or stark raving bonkers
No wonder people get annoyed with faith when they try to apply the principles of logic to it using overly simplistic "apparent" truths in order to dissmiss something their soul yearns for but something there pride dosen't.
On the face of it Trying to understand Faith+Using logic= same conclusion...No God/
All of us want to know why we're here, how we got here and what happens after. I lost respect for my favourite teacher at school when I asked him to explain his Christianity because it didn't make sense to me. He responded that it was part of man's vanity that he couldn't accept what he couldn't understand. Like all faith, this could be used to support absolutely anything.
Pride? I am not too proud to accept the possiblity that I am merely an animal, that when I'm gone I may cease to exist in any form whatsoever. I'm not proud enough to be sure that, unlike the various other lifeforms that have lived on this planet, I am special, that unlike all the other living creatures, God created me in his own image and when I die (having remembered to repent before I buy the farm) I will be seated with in heaven.
I still haven't got the answer but I believe, in a reverse of my teachers statement, that is part of some folks vanity to accept what they cannot understand.
coley
Active Member
Ive never experienced a surge of pride when going to church. Just an inner sense of peace and just "knowing" I am in the right place.
I can understand to some degree why you would lose some respect for your former teacher if he tried shooting down in flames any questions you had with a simple "man is vain" statement.
I have tried to not do that because some people in modern society are quick of the mark with responses that are almost as cliche'd and unfounded as they claim the Bible to be.
Ive met a few well known/high society, if you will; people of faith over a few years and they are all well grounded and gratefull for what they have.
Its all down to how you choose to view life. I can only speak from my own experience having come from a secular background. I am a billion light years from any form of perfection which is one of the reasons I try to follow what I follow.
Either way... These kind of questions will always be raised from a society who in some cases aint getting fullfilment no matter what they do/achieve.
I can understand to some degree why you would lose some respect for your former teacher if he tried shooting down in flames any questions you had with a simple "man is vain" statement.
I have tried to not do that because some people in modern society are quick of the mark with responses that are almost as cliche'd and unfounded as they claim the Bible to be.
Ive met a few well known/high society, if you will; people of faith over a few years and they are all well grounded and gratefull for what they have.
Its all down to how you choose to view life. I can only speak from my own experience having come from a secular background. I am a billion light years from any form of perfection which is one of the reasons I try to follow what I follow.
Either way... These kind of questions will always be raised from a society who in some cases aint getting fullfilment no matter what they do/achieve.
"For any theory to stand it has to have evidence and the evidence of Darwin is flawed ( ie gaps etc) in genetic coding which points to a creator."
I hope I don't sound like I am trying to insult your beliefs because I am not (that is my disclaimer...). I do study the New Testament and other religious systems on the doctoral level and as I said before, we try our hardest to avoid the concept of faith because it is ridiculous to make blanket generalizations about it...but it creeps in no matter what. ANYWAY, I guess I wanted clarification on this statement...just because there are gaps in the evidence of Darwin mean that there is, by default, a creator? What if we just haven't discovered the stuff to fill in the gaps yet, after all, contrary to popular belief of most human beings, we do not know everything...yet that doesn't mean that there is a de facto creator. If there is gaps in scripture or faith systems then does that mean there is not a creator? No. But if one is to answer the question scientifically, one would go with the choice that has the most factual evidence behind it and keep researching to fill in the gaps, no matter how long it takes. The problem is that we can't scientifically account for the existence of a creator. I mean Christianity took 2000 years to develop to this stage and we are only giving Darwin (and the theorists on his coattails) a couple of hundred.
Or it is quite possible I misunderstood your point. All in all, everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want. I just wish (oh to live in an ideal world) that the world could have an educated conversation about these topics and not get killed for expressing our own ideas and thoughts. But it isn't, so f*ck it, I guess.
I hope I don't sound like I am trying to insult your beliefs because I am not (that is my disclaimer...). I do study the New Testament and other religious systems on the doctoral level and as I said before, we try our hardest to avoid the concept of faith because it is ridiculous to make blanket generalizations about it...but it creeps in no matter what. ANYWAY, I guess I wanted clarification on this statement...just because there are gaps in the evidence of Darwin mean that there is, by default, a creator? What if we just haven't discovered the stuff to fill in the gaps yet, after all, contrary to popular belief of most human beings, we do not know everything...yet that doesn't mean that there is a de facto creator. If there is gaps in scripture or faith systems then does that mean there is not a creator? No. But if one is to answer the question scientifically, one would go with the choice that has the most factual evidence behind it and keep researching to fill in the gaps, no matter how long it takes. The problem is that we can't scientifically account for the existence of a creator. I mean Christianity took 2000 years to develop to this stage and we are only giving Darwin (and the theorists on his coattails) a couple of hundred.
Or it is quite possible I misunderstood your point. All in all, everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want. I just wish (oh to live in an ideal world) that the world could have an educated conversation about these topics and not get killed for expressing our own ideas and thoughts. But it isn't, so f*ck it, I guess.
coley
Active Member
Hello there. My point was that the theory of evolution is not as grounded and backed as most might think it is. As I said in the previous post there are scientific christian organisations that have proven the existence of god with various artifacts and scientific research.
Incidentally I tend not to get offended too much by peoples questioning and arguments because we all have a desire to want to know as Buckley pointed out.
I do not currently have the ins and outs of scientific Christian facts to hand because that is not my approach otherwise it would render my faith as weak IMO. Rest assured I am sure I could find the relevant information that could answer some of the questions that yourself and Buckley have posed.
As I said before, and I know this is difficult to understand (trust me Ive almosted imploded at times) but faith is of the spirit. Not the mind. To experience the benefits of faith if you like one has to step forward and take a leap of faith. I follow your reasons as to why evolution is the populist belief because its the one that appears to be backed by the most evidence.
I believe on a personal note that the theory of evolution will never be proved. Science has made tremendous progress over the past few hundred years and still cannot conclusively prove and identify the cause of our existence alone.
Yet a book that has lasted hundreds of years holds many univerasal truths that are still being applied today by people from all walks of life.
By nature we shall question, By faith we are uplifted.
Incidentally I tend not to get offended too much by peoples questioning and arguments because we all have a desire to want to know as Buckley pointed out.
I do not currently have the ins and outs of scientific Christian facts to hand because that is not my approach otherwise it would render my faith as weak IMO. Rest assured I am sure I could find the relevant information that could answer some of the questions that yourself and Buckley have posed.
As I said before, and I know this is difficult to understand (trust me Ive almosted imploded at times) but faith is of the spirit. Not the mind. To experience the benefits of faith if you like one has to step forward and take a leap of faith. I follow your reasons as to why evolution is the populist belief because its the one that appears to be backed by the most evidence.
I believe on a personal note that the theory of evolution will never be proved. Science has made tremendous progress over the past few hundred years and still cannot conclusively prove and identify the cause of our existence alone.
Yet a book that has lasted hundreds of years holds many univerasal truths that are still being applied today by people from all walks of life.
By nature we shall question, By faith we are uplifted.
his thread is a good read. Tough subject not to get to fighting about. But great debate.
Coley will have the last laugh when he's on his cloud eating chocolates and listening to Chillout music (cos that's what happens in heaven) 8)
Do me a favour and drop me a rope when you're upstairs mate.
Otherwise I'm BBQ
Or worm food if Buckley's mob is right.
I plan to discover the Elixier of Life, so maybe I'll never need to find out. It's defo gonna have strawberries in it- but that's as far as I've got. I'll keep you posted. I'll have it sorted by June.
Coley will have the last laugh when he's on his cloud eating chocolates and listening to Chillout music (cos that's what happens in heaven) 8)
Do me a favour and drop me a rope when you're upstairs mate.
Otherwise I'm BBQ
Or worm food if Buckley's mob is right.
I plan to discover the Elixier of Life, so maybe I'll never need to find out. It's defo gonna have strawberries in it- but that's as far as I've got. I'll keep you posted. I'll have it sorted by June.
Buckley
Well-Known Member
MARKB said:
As long as it not bananas in it - no hope of getting it Es Vive if so - ask BBS/Bengay!
As per my previous arguments Mark, at least if the Christians are right, me, you the Muslims and the Jews will have enough to run a fairly big footy tournament in the underworld (not the dingy venue in Camden Town you understand, although I can see an eternity in there being a punishment for unbelievers).
No mentioned the chocolate and chillout music before though. Makes it an entirely different prospect - room on that pew for one more Coley sir?