Brexit

You're letting how other people communicate bother you. Grow up.

Do you know sign-language? Does that offend you? What if the dumb people are slagging you off right to your face?
When I was married, my Spanish wife and I would talk to each other in our own native language, so I would always talk to her in English (except when with non-English speakers) and she always spoke to me in Spanish (with the same caveat). We often used to get the odd strange look but this would have blown poor Nostalgic's mind I imagine :)
 
Prime example of the split in this country this thread.
Also I didn't see a ballot paper with Donald Tusks name on it. So I'm sorry the democratic process of the EU needs a major overhaul......
No-one voted for Theresa May either, that's not how a parliamentary democracy works. The EU is no less democratic than the UK, in fact more so. Nobody un-elected gets to pass laws in EU, the European Parliament (elected directly by us) and the European Commission (one member per elected government of each member state) must pass all laws and can suggest amendments.

Germany's exports to the UK 86 billion euros.........they want a trade deal.
This is another common misconception in Britain. I live in Germany and I think it shows a fundamental difference in mentality between the British and the Germans. Germans tend to think longer term in my experience and, while there's no doubt that German manufacturers would rather see a deal made, they are absolutely not willing to do this if it risks the fundamental pillars of the European Union, even if it means taking some short term pain. For them, the long term stability of the EU is more important. The British seem to be more like the Americans IMO, think much more short term, and therefore simply cannot understand the position of German industry - they're in denial.
 
No-one voted for Theresa May either, that's not how a parliamentary democracy works. The EU is no less democratic than the UK, in fact more so. Nobody un-elected gets to pass laws in EU, the European Parliament (elected directly by us) and the European Commission (one member per elected government of each member state) must pass all laws and can suggest amendments.


This is another common misconception in Britain. I live in Germany and I think it shows a fundamental difference in mentality between the British and the Germans. Germans tend to think longer term in my experience and, while there's no doubt that German manufacturers would rather see a deal made, they are absolutely not willing to do this if it risks the fundamental pillars of the European Union, even if it means taking some short term pain. For them, the long term stability of the EU is more important. The British seem to be more like the Americans IMO, think much more short term, and therefore simply cannot understand the position of German industry - they're in denial.
Won't the German (and any other) car manufactureres be looking more towards Russia and the Far East for trade/deals/sales rather than the UK these days? Point being if Germany visa the EU got those deals, and we aren't in the EU, could we miss out? Mind you, we have to have something to sell anyway, and I'm not sure what we can make that's not produced elsewhere much cheaper - unless we hammer worker's wages to rock-bottom?
 
No-one voted for Theresa May either, that's not how a parliamentary democracy works. The EU is no less democratic than the UK, in fact more so. Nobody un-elected gets to pass laws in EU, the European Parliament (elected directly by us) and the European Commission (one member per elected government of each member state) must pass all laws and can suggest amendments.


This is another common misconception in Britain. I live in Germany and I think it shows a fundamental difference in mentality between the British and the Germans. Germans tend to think longer term in my experience and, while there's no doubt that German manufacturers would rather see a deal made, they are absolutely not willing to do this if it risks the fundamental pillars of the European Union, even if it means taking some short term pain. For them, the long term stability of the EU is more important. The British seem to be more like the Americans IMO, think much more short term, and therefore simply cannot understand the position of German industry - they're in denial.

Mate..

May won a general election? When you vote in a general election. You are voting for the leader and party of your own personal choice.

She didn't get the majority she assumed she'd get. But she won legit..

Before that. Then yes I agree she hadn't. My own view is if a PM quits then an automatic general election should called.

As far as the EU is concerned. I'm aware of how it works. But for me I don't agree with how it works.

People need to stop crying and think that they're somehow far more intelligent than those who chose to vote the other way to how they did.

The difference maybe between the population of Germany and the population of the UK is...... People in the UK maybe just don't feel particularly European.

Happy to trade. But that's it. If someone does feel that way inclined. That's their choice. What they shouldn't be. Is labelled as stupid. Not feeling European doesn't have any bearing on your I.Q.

I work in an industry where the benefits of free trade are so,so apparent every day. Coming out of that trade agreement is going to be a real,real headache. There are so many elements of EU membership that are fantastic. However there's a lot that's wrong as well. People had a choice and made it for what they thought was for the best. The votes been made. Time to get on and make of it what everyone can.....
 
Mate..

May won a general election? When you vote in a general election. You are voting for the leader and party of your own personal choice.
She didn't get the majority she assumed she'd get. But she won legit..
That might be what people tend to do, but that is not how our parliamentary democracy works. You are voting for a party and not the person, the party can change their leader at any time and you get no new vote.

Before that. Then yes I agree she hadn't. My own view is if a PM quits then an automatic general election should called.
That might be your view, but it doesn't change the reality ;-)

As far as the EU is concerned. I'm aware of how it works. But for me I don't agree with how it works.

People need to stop crying and think that they're somehow far more intelligent than those who chose to vote the other way to how they did.
To typify it as "crying" is childish. Very few Remainers are "crying" but simply trying to construct reasoned arguments as to why leaving is a bad idea and that many of the arguments used by the leave campaign were outright lies and relied on people not informing themselves of the consequences.

The difference maybe between the population of Germany and the population of the UK is...... People in the UK maybe just don't feel particularly European.
Speak for yourself, but I happen to feel very European, although I can't claim to speak for the rest of the UK.

Happy to trade. But that's it. If someone does feel that way inclined. That's their choice. What they shouldn't be. Is labelled as stupid. Not feeling European doesn't have any bearing on your I.Q.

I work in an industry where the benefits of free trade are so,so apparent every day. Coming out of that trade agreement is going to be a real,real headache. There are so many elements of EU membership that are fantastic. However there's a lot that's wrong as well. People had a choice and made it for what they thought was for the best. The votes been made. Time to get on and make of it what everyone can.....
Not sure why you keep bringing UK IQ, I never mentioned it, nor did I imply yours was in any way deficient! You're right, they had a choice, but the referendum "leave" campaign was fought by liars and cheats and illegally funded. It was also not clear what people voted for, the choice was between remain and and almost infinite number of shades of leave, ranging from a hard-brexit through to a Norway-style free-trade agreement (which was championed by many of the liars in chief at the time). Now it is becoming clear exactly what type of Brexit we're headed for I think the only fair thing to do now is have a second referendum.
 
Won't the German (and any other) car manufactureres be looking more towards Russia and the Far East for trade/deals/sales rather than the UK these days? Point being if Germany visa the EU got those deals, and we aren't in the EU, could we miss out? Mind you, we have to have something to sell anyway, and I'm not sure what we can make that's not produced elsewhere much cheaper - unless we hammer worker's wages to rock-bottom?
To some extent it's irrelevant what the car manufacturers in Germany think, while they represent a fairly large amount of exports to the UK they are just one industry in a group of 27 countries, all of whom have to agree to any deal with the UK. Even if they had gone bashing down Merkel's door demanding a trade deal with the UK (as the Brexiters told us they would), and even if Merkel were minded to take any notice of them, the remaining 26 countries would have to agree to whatever deal was offered.
 
That might be what people tend to do, but that is not how our parliamentary democracy works. You are voting for a party and not the person, the party can change their leader at any time and you get no new vote.


That might be your view, but it doesn't change the reality ;-)


To typify it as "crying" is childish. Very few Remainers are "crying" but simply trying to construct reasoned arguments as to why leaving is a bad idea and that many of the arguments used by the leave campaign were outright lies and relied on people not informing themselves of the consequences.


Speak for yourself, but I happen to feel very European, although I can't claim to speak for the rest of the UK.


Not sure why you keep bringing UK IQ, I never mentioned it, nor did I imply yours was in any way deficient! You're right, they had a choice, but the referendum "leave" campaign was fought by liars and cheats and illegally funded. It was also not clear what people voted for, the choice was between remain and and almost infinite number of shades of leave, ranging from a hard-brexit through to a Norway-style free-trade agreement (which was championed by many of the liars in chief at the time). Now it is becoming clear exactly what type of Brexit we're headed for I think the only fair thing to do now is have a second referendum.

Just to clarify. The general vibe from the Remain camp I feel is one of upset and I use the term "crying". Not directed at you personally. Neither the I.Q comment. The usual attitude on social media I've come across is. You must be stupid if you voted to leave..

I agree the direction of this government isn't one of harmony across the party towards how we should negotiate Brexit.

I don't think David Davis was the right person at all to lead negotiations. So much time wasted with him at the helm.

As far as a second referendum is concerned....I think if the result was reversed. Then it'd open up a can of worms potentially. Let's make it best of 3. It could get silly..although I personally wouldn't mind.

If EU membership is fantastic and by far the best thing for the country. And I'm not saying it isn't a real positive at all.

Why,why could they not get this message across. The remain message was so negative. Based on negatives of leaving. Not about the real positive of staying.

For me this was the error......

My own view is. If we all sat down tomorrow and stopped the process of Brexit. I actually wouldn't mind at all. I think the UK's feelings have been made by quite a significant percentage . And maybe the EU would try and do things a little differently and show a little more sensitivity to those feelings......
 
Just to clarify. The general vibe from the Remain camp I feel is one of upset and I use the term "crying". Not directed at you personally. Neither the I.Q comment. The usual attitude on social media I've come across is. You must be stupid if you voted to leave..

I agree the direction of this government isn't one of harmony across the party towards how we should negotiate Brexit.

I don't think David Davis was the right person at all to lead negotiations. So much time wasted with him at the helm.

As far as a second referendum is concerned....I think if the result was reversed. Then it'd open up a can of worms potentially. Let's make it best of 3. It could get silly..although I personally wouldn't mind.

If EU membership is fantastic and by far the best thing for the country. And I'm not saying it isn't a real positive at all.

Why,why could they not get this message across. The remain message was so negative. Based on negatives of leaving. Not about the real positive of staying.

For me this was the error......

My own view is. If we all sat down tomorrow and stopped the process of Brexit. I actually wouldn't mind at all. I think the UK's feelings have been made by quite a significant percentage . And maybe the EU would try and do things a little differently and show a little more sensitivity to those feelings......
I think May's swiiming against the tide and can't survive - why? She's boxed herself in to her red lines (one is to drop freedom of movement) and yet have no border in Ireland (the UK's only land border with the EU) and the two are incompatible.
If the UK is to have Brexit, paradoxically they need to keep freedom of movement with the EU in order to be outside the EU but within the EEA (or alligned to r/e single market/customs union) - and if that's the case why bother leaving at all?
i can't see any way the EU will break the single market for the sake of one border (when to be honest all theexternal borders are being hardened anyway) - let's face it if goods which are illegal under EU rules (eg some kinds of foods, electrical goods etc) arrive in the UK and can't cross the channel, the could easily be taken to Northern Ireland and across the border there into the EU unchallenged.
Of course it works the other way and anyone from the EU that the UK wants to keep out can simply enter that way into the UK unchellenged. Makes a mockery of "control of borders".
So May's tied herself up in knots, and really should resign and allow someone to negotiate who isn't tied up in red lines!
Or we could leave deal-less and have the prospect of everything between the EU and the UK grinding to a halt, as there's no paperwork signed to let everything carry on!
Dear oh dear Mrs May, what a palava.
I think ultimately the government will bottle out of this omnishambles and let the people decide again. That woman from Bristol won't be amused.
 
Just to clarify. The general vibe from the Remain camp I feel is one of upset and I use the term "crying". Not directed at you personally. Neither the I.Q comment. The usual attitude on social media I've come across is. You must be stupid if you voted to leave..
Fair enough, and it's nice to have a reasoned discussion for a change :) I think the problem is, if you are a Leaver you are judged by the company you keep, which unfortunately is the Far Right and a bunch of proven liars and snake-oil salesmen.

As far as a second referendum is concerned....I think if the result was reversed. Then it'd open up a can of worms potentially. Let's make it best of 3. It could get silly..although I personally wouldn't mind.
I think whatever happens now there is potential for civil unrest unfortunately. If a new referendum came out on the side of remain, obviously there would be the possibility of the Far Right agitating unrest. If we leave with no deal, the consequences are so dire that civil unrest is even more likely and we'd be in serious trouble.

If EU membership is fantastic and by far the best thing for the country. And I'm not saying it isn't a real positive at all.

Why,why could they not get this message across. The remain message was so negative. Based on negatives of leaving. Not about the real positive of staying.

For me this was the error......
I agree with you here, it was a complete failure to put across the benefits of EU membership that was partly responsible, but it's also a massively difficult task to overcome decades of self-interested, right-wing media anti-EU propaganda (bent bananas anyone?).

We will not get a better deal than we have now, not with anyone, it's a simple fact. The EU will not give us a better trade deal with them outside of the club than we had inside, that much ought to be clear to anyone. Nor will we be able to negotiate better trade deals with countries that we already have a trade deal with via the EU. This is partly because they have no incentive to give a better deal to us, as a smaller player we have a far weaker negotiating hand, but also because the trade deals that are already in place have clauses specifically disallowing better deals to be negotiated with other countries (in other words, if Japan negotiated a better deal with the UK than it has with the EU, that deal would also have to be extended to the EU).

My own view is. If we all sat down tomorrow and stopped the process of Brexit. I actually wouldn't mind at all. I think the UK's feelings have been made by quite a significant percentage . And maybe the EU would try and do things a little differently and show a little more sensitivity to those feelings......
I hope this happens, but I'm genuinely interested to know which bit of the EU you'd like to change?
 
I wouldn't be surprised if she walked away with no deal. No vote in parliament required for that. No general election(no way she'd win another).

Probably been handed a favour by Tusk and his Instagram post.....
 
Fair enough, and it's nice to have a reasoned discussion for a change :) I think the problem is, if you are a Leaver you are judged by the company you keep, which unfortunately is the Far Right and a bunch of proven liars and snake-oil salesmen.


I think whatever happens now there is potential for civil unrest unfortunately. If a new referendum came out on the side of remain, obviously there would be the possibility of the Far Right agitating unrest. If we leave with no deal, the consequences are so dire that civil unrest is even more likely and we'd be in serious trouble.


I agree with you here, it was a complete failure to put across the benefits of EU membership that was partly responsible, but it's also a massively difficult task to overcome decades of self-interested, right-wing media anti-EU propaganda (bent bananas anyone?).

We will not get a better deal than we have now, not with anyone, it's a simple fact. The EU will not give us a better trade deal with them outside of the club than we had inside, that much ought to be clear to anyone. Nor will we be able to negotiate better trade deals with countries that we already have a trade deal with via the EU. This is partly because they have no incentive to give a better deal to us, as a smaller player we have a far weaker negotiating hand, but also because the trade deals that are already in place have clauses specifically disallowing better deals to be negotiated with other countries (in other words, if Japan negotiated a better deal with the UK than it has with the EU, that deal would also have to be extended to the EU).


I hope this happens, but I'm genuinely interested to know which bit of the EU you'd like to change?

The part I'd change is accountability and voting for candidates for top position.

If the EU is for the citizens of member states. Let them have more of a say. Let them have more input. More of a voice. I'd really like that to happen.
 
This is tosh...and he didn't call him racist, he called him xenophobic - there is a difference...I think this was a fair observation given the description he had given of the "polish people" not speaking English in tracksuits at the bank...
Erm he replied Sounds a bit racist.. You even liked it
 
Erm he replied Sounds a bit racist.. You even liked it

You're right! That's embarrassing. "Paranoid xenophobic" was a more appropriate description. Racist a bit strong...but he wasn't just calling him that for the sake of it because they disagreed.
 
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