#Brexit
- Thread starter Fronty
- Start date
In what way is the EU undemocratic?
mr_why
Moderator
The terms soft and hard really grate me. It is IN or OUT. If the EU just cared about its people and not its empire building we could have a free trade agreement agreed in 1 hour. We have one now.
mr_why
Moderator
Remind me when the vote for President was? I must have missed it.
Remind me who voted for Theresa May? That's not how parliamentary democracies work.
mr_why
Moderator
We don't vote for leaders, we vote for MPs in parties, and the party with the largest number of MPs is asked to form a government. That party can change their leader every week if they so wish.
Amp and Deck
Active Member
I have a lot of reservations about the EU but on the whole the UK was on to a good thing and now the young have been sold down the river by ageing nationalists.
everything will get more expensive, more insular, more narrow minded and poor regions more deprived but at least passports will be blue again, eh
everything will get more expensive, more insular, more narrow minded and poor regions more deprived but at least passports will be blue again, eh
In the same way the president of the EU is elected by the European Parliament, which is a body of elected MEPs (you did vote in the Euro elections right?).
mr_why
Moderator
Yeah, I seriously get this side of the argument. I hate the nationalist side of it. But I completely disagree if you think industry, business, government are just gonna say "oh yeah we will be poorer". You don't survive for 1000s of years with people thinking that. You innovate and survive. This was in CityAM today, and I agree with most of it: http://www.cityam.com/262272/london-must-take-leaf-hong-kongs-book-thrive-amid-brexit
mr_why
Moderator
If you have no issue with a country the size of Malta holding the presidency of the EU then that is fine. Malta has an economy of c.$9 Bn. The UK has an economy of $2.8 TRILLION. I mean this is like a small business owner in Cardiff having a say on a company the size of HSBC.
You're either confusing the president and the presidency or deliberating changing the argument.
Your original point about the EU being undemocratic is a wrong, but oft repeated mantra that anyone with Google could disprove in 5 minutes. Granted, it might not be perfect and it might feel undemocratic because we feel further removed from the seat of power and few people can be bothered to vote for their MEP or even take any interest in how the EU parliament works, but you can't blame the EU for people's failure to educate themselves.
Many of the people that claim the EU is undemocratic fail to even understand the way their own parliament works. Quite why a system that requires new law to be voted for by only one elected house, before having to be passed by a house of unelected hereditary peers and then eventually signed off by an unelected hereditary monarch [EDIT: is more democratic] is beyond me. This is certainly less democratic than the EU.
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mr_why
Moderator
I will give you a lot of that, good points. Undemocratic was probably the wrong word - but an MEP in any country can still write and change laws in the European Parliament. Do you think that people identify more with EU than they do with their own parliament? We all snigger at "identity", but that was a lot of what Brexit was about. You're talking to someone who spends more time out of the UK than in, so it is not an issue for me I live and work most places but the UK at the moment) - but for many it was an issue. Do people think the UK parliamentary system is great - probably not. But they can accept it more than laws being made by an MEP in Malta.
Laws can be proposed but they have to pass though two houses, one with representatives from the national governments, that we elected in our own national elections, the EU council and the EU Parliament that we elected via our MEPs (or didn't bother in most cases!). So it's still not true to say that some nobody from Malta can make a law.
As Churchhill said "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.!
Me too, which kind of surprised me about your identity argument. I love living and working abroad, I've lived in Finland, Spain and now I live in Germany and have done for years, and although I'm British, I identify more as a European I think.
mr_why
Moderator
I am hardly typical. So while I don't care where I live and work - many people do.
DarrenW
Active Member
Good to read the above exchange, and whilst not having a pop at anyone (honest!) it's very telling that even someone who has read up on, and thinks they are informed about the EU and it's workings, doesn't really.
We've been duped, I think, by a few politicians playing to the people who might stick a poster in the window of their white van saying 'up yours' to an entire country. It's embarrassing.
We've been duped, I think, by a few politicians playing to the people who might stick a poster in the window of their white van saying 'up yours' to an entire country. It's embarrassing.
Johnny Vodka
Well-Known Member
Voted no to Scottish independence previously but will sure as hell vote yes next time to get us back in the EU. You know that snooper's charter thing, where ISPs have to hold every e-mail/every site you've visited for a year (unless you're an MP, strangely enough)? That's illegal under EU law. Just one example of the EU having to save us from ourselves. Only now we're no longer in the EU and you can bet the Tories will push through more and more authoritarian policies.
mr_why
Moderator
I agree. Scotland should go. But I'm not sure how Scotland could trade with rUK if there is no free trade agreement. 60%+ of their trade must be with rUK? Also, with end of freedom of movement would be a lot of repatriation of Scots from rUK. Not sure it's workable.