Religion, monarchy, and politics go hand in hand; they are used by the few to control the many. The social morals are decided by the group that people belong to. If you don't follow the group morals you will be shunned. If you are honest you follow the morals of your parents and friends so that you can get along. The board has a moral code we follow, if someone gets out of line they are hammered back in shape or sent packing.
Religion....
- Thread starter OllieNotts
- Start date
kimajy
Well-Known Member
In all honesty, isn't it much more likely that Homo Sapiens eliminated Neanderthals rather than the latter dying out through natural selection .. mankind has been known to eat other members of his own species in days of yore, in certain cultures. Hmmm ... not at all convinced man's natural benchmark is a state of moral purity !
Indeed
Johnny Vodka
Well-Known Member
Evolution, though, innit? Surely those that co-operate with their fellow human beings are likely to have an advantage and live longer? Those that don't co-operate are likely to be cast out on their own.
And that's before you get to morality being subjective and some official moral codes, laws, etc being set up to serve those in power...
kimajy
Well-Known Member
Could go on for ever and get very boring, and I have little interest in formal theories of these things, but basically, left to his own devices in an unsophisticated context man is self-seeking (survival), co-operates where it's needed to aid survival and is competitive to attain more (be it power, position, respect or for material gain).
'Morality' is indeed subjective but is usually over-ridden entirely in a survival context (originally pretty much an all-consuming objective). 'Natural selection' dominates in a survival context. Point is that as society becomes more complex, and focus shifts from survival to 'enhancement', the means of controlling and regulating behaviour also takes on a more complex shape. The "luxury" of "morality" is surely associated with those 'enhancement' objectives.
It may be tempting to think that where there is no competition for resources (infinite supply), 'sheep' will happily graze in the land of plenty throughout their days musing on the meaning of life and seek nothing more. However, I think we all know that is not the way Home Sapiens is wired up to be, don't we ? The lack of 'productive purpose' would soon lead to boredom and disaffection .. and most likely, in turn, perversion. Not as if we've never seen it before is it ?
Are you honestly implying that homosapiens set-out to ethnic clense neanderthals?!?!?!
It is of course, without doubt, the result of natural selection. To suggest anything to the contary is plain ridiculous.
My point was that mankind had no agenda before religion. It accepted the world it was in, and integrated.
Interestingly enough, the most intelligent of men already pander to the most obvious "higher power" and that is through science - for that is the only path for which we will learn more about our place in the universe.
Science doesn't have all the answers (yet), ... but it doesn't pretend too. That's the beauty of it.
There are things we believe to be true now, but in a decade or so will know to be false. This is the pure genius of man - trial and error - learning through play. As opposed to blinded by faith.
...and still do. See Siberia and Peru...and there are loads of Faeries/Pagans/Shamans and Druids walking the tightrope between worlds on your very own doorstep.
kimajy
Well-Known Member
Are you honestly implying that homosapiens set-out to ethnic clense neanderthals?!?!?!
Well that would depend largely on whether Neanderthal agreed to be bound in servitude to Homo Sapiens doesn't it ?
Otherwise might find itself on the menu and in a similar target zone to Gorilla Gorilla ... my comments are tongue-in-cheek -you have a very altruistic view of humanity !Organized religion was surely man's own invention, was it not ? It did not fall from the heavens and alter the course of mankind as some kind of perverted evil force. It essentially a regulatory framework.
Has Science itself not been turned into a religon ? Bears many of the hallmarks to me.. not least of which being a bigoted, self-worshipping attitude and an intolerance of any who stray from the 'party line' of the day. Science may embrace a 'changing story' rather than a relatively static doctrine, but along the way JV's point bears true in the science world too - if someone doesn't co-operate, kick them out on their own (whether they turn out ot be right or wrong). The basic constituent elements of man's default social behaviour do not change much, however "intelligent" the context.. imho !
Man @ play ?
YES.
The application of Science is often used as such.
...and the rigid place of 'knowing' gives people a license to deny the great mystery that is in front of their faces (understanding of consciousness has been around for millennia after all).
See atheism (as opposed to agnosticism).
Johnny Vodka
Well-Known Member
Surely, science is fine, providing people realise theories are subject to change in light of new knowledge? If anything, we need better and more science, rather than spin/prejudice that passes for debate (see DRUGS ).
You can have science and romanticism at the same time - switch between complete immersion in life and an understanding of underlying form, nature's laws, etc.
).You can have science and romanticism at the same time - switch between complete immersion in life and an understanding of underlying form, nature's laws, etc.
Also known as shamanism.
Religion is like the dictatorships of Saddam Hussein and Gaddafi and even the Roman Empire.
Horrible things were committed on their watch and only a fool believes in what they stand for.
But they brought and maintained order and a degree of civilisation in a space where there was none.
When removed, the vacuum is filled with chaos and worse.
In terms of the dictatorships, they are often replaced by more evil but without the benefits of the structure to hold the centre. with even the downtrodden wishing for the good old days fo the dictator.
In terms of religion, removal of an enforced moral code (however flawed) can leave a vacuum of behavioural, cultural and social norms with worse outcomes.
So although religion is undoubtedly flawed, the fact remains that they were probably the best model for the survival or progression of that society at the time!
As society changes - and it's changing fast - it's easy to look back and dismiss thousands of years of human behaviour as utter folly.
But we're not a smart as we think we are today, we've just got hindsight. But even hindsight doesn't take away from the fact that many of the world's religions have facilitated advances in civilisation which put us firmly where we are today.
I feel fortunate that i can reject or accept religion out of my own free will, with little consequence. I suspect it wasn't always this simple.
Horrible things were committed on their watch and only a fool believes in what they stand for.
But they brought and maintained order and a degree of civilisation in a space where there was none.
When removed, the vacuum is filled with chaos and worse.
In terms of the dictatorships, they are often replaced by more evil but without the benefits of the structure to hold the centre. with even the downtrodden wishing for the good old days fo the dictator.
In terms of religion, removal of an enforced moral code (however flawed) can leave a vacuum of behavioural, cultural and social norms with worse outcomes.
So although religion is undoubtedly flawed, the fact remains that they were probably the best model for the survival or progression of that society at the time!
As society changes - and it's changing fast - it's easy to look back and dismiss thousands of years of human behaviour as utter folly.
But we're not a smart as we think we are today, we've just got hindsight. But even hindsight doesn't take away from the fact that many of the world's religions have facilitated advances in civilisation which put us firmly where we are today.
I feel fortunate that i can reject or accept religion out of my own free will, with little consequence. I suspect it wasn't always this simple.
Phil_Dicko
Active Member
NOW you're talking my language...
All hail, Reverend McKenna, and his army of psychedelic gnomes!
I must admit, my current view of the world is a rather irrational, f*cked up mix of liberal logical positivism (logical language and the like), deterministic humanism (fascination for the dark parts of human history etc.) and a casual, romantic dose of cultural shamanism. It's all meant to fit together somehow... I just don't know how!
Even in pre-historic times mam killed man for things like food, a chance to mate, and to gain territory. There is archaeological proof that this happened. I think a combination of inter-breading, evolution, natural selection, and genocide spelled the end of Neanderthals.
kimajy
Well-Known Member
Some very good points there. Although I have to say I don't see the outcomes in bold as something particularly to be viewed entirely positively ! A species increasingly empowered with the means (and propensity) to take for itself and consume far more of its fair share of resources than the world can sustain, and the option to bring about its destruction in the right circumstances. Great result !
Neither do I my friend.
But it was probably always the natural progession for us 'orrible humans!
I see your point but it's fundamentally flawed because religion is the cause of all this chaos in the first place. You can't create order out of this. It's always going to be a sticking plaster solution.
Religion is never a preferred option regardless of the circumstances. Not ever. Nope not even then. Or then. It robs people of their power and creates a nation of fear.
...the ancient way, using maps based on the laws of nature - i.e. the four directions/elements and masculine/feminine principles (science) is the way forward. There are no words so any interpretation is timeless and doesn't have to involve ditching our flats and living in a forest wearing tribal robes.
Should we choose to actually listen to nature as opposed to some stupid adult 'knowing' or book then the stupid moral codes that everyone seems so keen on would become obsolete.
Religion causes more chaos and this is a fact. The moment you lose your own connection in relation to what is, you naturally go off the rails.
A glimpse at history will show you that religion has robbed us all of this.
I see your point but it's fundamentally flawed because religion is the cause of all this chaos in the first place. You can't create order out of this. It's always going to be a sticking plaster solution.
Religion is never a preferred option regardless of the circumstances. Not ever. Nope not even then. Or then. It robs people of their power and creates a nation of fear.
...the ancient way, using maps based on the laws of nature - i.e. the four directions/elements and masculine/feminine principles (science) is the way forward. There are no words so any interpretation is timeless and doesn't have to involve ditching our flats and living in a forest wearing tribal robes.
Should we choose to actually listen to nature as opposed to some stupid adult 'knowing' or book then the stupid moral codes that everyone seems so keen on would become obsolete.
Religion causes more chaos and this is a fact. The moment you lose your own connection in relation to what is, you naturally go off the rails.
A glimpse at history will show you that religion has robbed us all of this.
Does religion cause chaos? I thought it inflicted order? Often unwanted order, but order nonetheless.
Someone else's order maybe - certainly not mine.
Gaddafi and Mugabe have created order on their own watches. The word is therefore meaningless.
...and I'd rather not go back hundreds of years thanks.
Christianity has wreaked havoc with my own existence. It is not, and will never be anything other than the most abhorrent, loathesome and vile institution to ever hit our shores.
Gaddafi and Mugabe have created order on their own watches. The word is therefore meaningless.
...and I'd rather not go back hundreds of years thanks.
Christianity has wreaked havoc with my own existence. It is not, and will never be anything other than the most abhorrent, loathesome and vile institution to ever hit our shores.