Michael Jackson dead?

Olly said:
Jackson is in the record books because thriller is the biggest album ever. The Beatles collectively over their career, however, sold more music than anyone else ever. Fact.
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Exactly THE BEATLES... George Harrison isn't in the record books anywhere without the other three. If you had have said the death of John Lennon originally then I could have maybe lived with that, but not George Harrison.
Plus Jackson is in the record books for a hell of a lot more than Thriller.
J
 
jaycranney said:
Exactly THE BEATLES... George Harrison isn't in the record books anywhere without the other three. If you had have said the death of John Lennon originally then I could have maybe lived with that, but not George Harrison.
Plus Jackson is in the record books for a hell of a lot more than Thriller.
J
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you could argue that MJ was nothing without quincy jones....

you can't separate the beatles - they are all one entity - I've read the excellent hunter davies biography and basically the beatles could not have worked without Harrison.

I think the main point though is the beatles set the standard in a very different pre-media age, which for me makes their achievements all the more impressive
 
gabibiza said:
Admit it...you dont like MJ and you prefer the beatles.

Its just diferent for me! MJ was the greatest entertainer in the world, we are not talking about numbers, but about his music, his talent, his love for the world!

If you wanna talk about numbers...how much did Harrison gave to charities compared to Michael?!!!
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you sound like a bit of an idiot
 
Olly said:
you could argue that MJ was nothing without quincy jones....

you can't separate the beatles - they are all one entity - I've read the excellent hunter davies biography and basically the beatles could not have worked without Harrison.

I think the main point though is the beatles set the standard in a very different pre-media age, which for me makes their achievements all the more impressive
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True, there is no doubt that Qunicy Jones was VERY significant in Jackson's success. But you originally said that George Harrison was as successful as Jackson and thats just not true. A lot of people would argue that Harrison was in fact the least popular out of the beatles. J
 
Olly said:
you could argue that MJ was nothing without quincy jones....

you can't separate the beatles - they are all one entity - I've read the excellent hunter davies biography and basically the beatles could not have worked without Harrison.

I think the main point though is the beatles set the standard in a very different pre-media age, which for me makes their achievements all the more impressive
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agreed that without Harrison the Beatles wouldn't have been what they were

but as you attribute MJs success to Jones
could the same not be said about the Beatles and George Martin or Brian Epstein?
 
macdonsj said:
agreed that without Harrison the Beatles wouldn't have been what they were

but as you attribute MJs success to Jones
could the same not be said about the Beatles and George Martin or Brian Epstein?
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Brian Epstein was their manager and died in 1967
George Martin only started working with them that same year on S.Pepper

much of their best work is on rubber soul and revolver 65-66

I'm not dissing MJ's talent pre-Q.Jones - but would he be anything other than another big motown star otherwise? It is notable how the quality of MJs output sharply diminished from BAD onwards....
 
Olly said:
Brian Epstein was their manager and died in 1967
George Martin only started working with them that same year on S.Pepper

much of their best work is on rubber soul and revolver 65-66

I'm not dissing MJ's talent pre-Q.Jones - but would he be anything other than another big motown star otherwise? It is notable how the quality of MJs output sharply diminished from BAD onwards....
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Martin produced every album apart from the Spector done Let It Be
he worked with them from the off - doing a lot of arrangement work that elevated "ordinary" tracks to legendary status - Yesterday being an example

and to dismiss Epstein as a manager is a bit harsh
he plucked them from the Cavern club and fought to get them signed
 
Olly said:
I'm not dissing MJ's talent pre-Q.Jones - but would he be anything other than another big motown star otherwise? It is notable how the quality of MJs output sharply diminished from BAD onwards....
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And are most motown stars not legends anyway? Plus, before Jone, the Jackson five are still the only group to have the first four singles to go straight to number 1.

And on another note his bad tour was the highest-grossing tour ever at the time, with over $125 million earned. Then his Dangerous World Tour broke that and then his HIStory World Tour broke that again... and is still the biggest tour ever in terms of international attendance (around 4.4 million tickets outside of USA). The last two done without the help of jones...
J
 
macdonsj - you're quite right about George Martin! - sorry, was getting muddled up :oops:

but my point remains - the difference is that whilst he enhanced the beatles work - but he didn't write the music - I think as overall talented musicians there is no real comparison

where Jackson is king as showman, dancer and consummate video performer

but on this, it is impossible to compare with a largely pre-video age and also the very different strands of music they represented
 
This sounds like one of those, "My dad's better than your dad" arguments I used to have in primary school. :lol:
 
Robder said:
This sounds like one of those, "My dad's better than your dad" arguments I used to have in primary school. :lol:
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But my dad is better than your dad ;):lol:

Right this is pointless, it's all just done to a matter of opinion now... but I still claim your original point is wrong Olly.

j
 
gabibiza said:
oi! i never said anything on you so dont start this, just said my opinion without insulting you. I have respect for the people on this forum not like you aparently. :twisted:
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well if your yardstick for comparing musical greatness is how much they give to charity, then that does make you look very silly, doesn't it...
 
Olly said:
well if your yardstick for comparing musical greatness is how much they give to charity, then that does make you look very silly, doesn't it...
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You were talking about numbers...so i give you an example. Beatles sell more, yes but did they as much as michael to charity?

this is talking abut him, not how many albums he sold compared to the beatles! he was a better performer, dancer and singer than Harrison i think. Thats just my opinion but don't come and say i'm an idiot like that coz i respect the opinion of everyone in here!
 
:lol: @ hurricane Olly. ;)

It might be worth remembering that not every country has a culture like us brash English folk.
 
gabibiza said:
You were talking about numbers...so i give you an example. Beatles sell more, yes but did they as much as michael to charity?

this is talking abut him, not how many albums he sold compared to the beatles! he was a better performer, dancer and singer than Harrison i think. Thats just my opinion but don't come and say i'm an idiot like that coz i respect the opinion of everyone in here!
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Forgive me for snapping earlier, but I felt you were trivialising what I thought was a good discussion with j cranney

for starters, how do you know how much anyone gives to charity? isn't charity supposed to be a private matter between you and your conscience? in any case, it has absolutely no relevance to this discussion.

you want me to compare George Harrison and Michael Jackson on some kind of personal, moral level? - how on earth am I supposed to do that, when I never met either and my entire view of both depends like everyone else's on the mass media. My initial comment about Harrison's family handling his death with enormous dignity is based on what I saw and on what McCartney later said in interviews and also a striking contrast to what I consider the unfolding freakshow in the United States.

I think you're right in that MJ was an amazing dancer - I don't think anyone would argue with that - but again, not really that relevant to this discussion.
 
Olly said:
Forgive me for snapping earlier, but I felt you were trivialising what I thought I was a good discussion with j cranney

for starters, how do you know how much anyone gives to charity? isn't charity supposed to be a private matter between you and your conscience? in any case, it has absolutely no relevance to this discussion.

you want me to compare George Harrison and Michael Jackson on some kind of personal, moral level? - how on earth am I supposed to do that, when I never met either and my entire view of both depends like everyone else's on the mass media. My initial comment about Harrison's family handling his death with enormous dignity is based on what I saw and on what McCartney later said in interviews and also a striking contrast to what I consider the unfolding freakshow in the United States.

I think you're right in that MJ was an amazing dancer - I don't think anyone would argue with that - but again, not really that relevant to this discussion.
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comparing events after their death is difficult tho

most Beatles fans would concede that when Harrison died - 'their 3rd favourite beatle was gone' - he was iconic as part of a collective and largely in the shadows as a solo artist apart from the odd great song

jackson was an icon with his brothers and that accelerated to the megastar he became solo
scale is a big thing
and as far as the MJ memorial goes - there were come crass moments and i'm totally sure that the coffin was unnecessary - but there were some genuine heartfelt moments there and its not as if it was a public funeral
 
Olly said:
Forgive me for snapping earlier, but I felt you were trivialising what I thought was a good discussion with j cranney

for starters, how do you know how much anyone gives to charity? isn't charity supposed to be a private matter between you and your conscience? in any case, it has absolutely no relevance to this discussion.

you want me to compare George Harrison and Michael Jackson on some kind of personal, moral level? - how on earth am I supposed to do that, when I never met either and my entire view of both depends like everyone else's on the mass media. My initial comment about Harrison's family handling his death with enormous dignity is based on what I saw and on what McCartney later said in interviews and also a striking contrast to what I consider the unfolding freakshow in the United States.

I think you're right in that MJ was an amazing dancer - I don't think anyone would argue with that - but again, not really that relevant to this discussion.
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We just went away from the discussion, yes its true.

For the comparasion between MJ's funeral and Harrisons its i think a bit normal...Harrison wasnt a person who whatever move he made, was then published by the press, Michael was but its not because of this main reason, its because he sort of changed something when he started his career, he changed something within the black comunity in the states. He was respected so much over there, he was born as an entertainer and he dies like one, a big star, and a memorial like that had to be done to say goodbye, his loved ones, his friends and his fans present to say a last goodbye. he deserved it.
 
I was listening to the radio earlier and some fans were speaking from a tribute night at the Apollo in NYC.

One of the quotes -

"THIS EVENT IS BIGGER AND MORE SIGNIFICANT THAN OBAMA'S INAUGURATION!" (with all sincerity)

There are loads of different opinions on this and there's just no point in arguing it out.

I know people that loved him (me included) along with people who really couldn't give a monkeys. :lol:
 
Robder said:
I was listening to the radio earlier and some fans were speaking from a tribute night at the Apollo in NYC.

One of the quotes -

"THIS EVENT IS BIGGER AND MORE SIGNIFICANT THAN OBAMA'S INAUGURATION!" (with all sincerity)

There are loads of different opinions on this and there's just no point in arguing it out.

I know people that loved him (me included) along with people who really couldn't give a monkeys. :lol:
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Apparently Bubbles has lost it and was too violent to be let loose at the funeral.

Now that would have been good telly. Bit like King Kong breaking out at the end.
 
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