Manchester bomb...

I agree - but there has to be an honest appraisal of what is happening. too many on left have head in sand

IME it's the right that have tend to have their heads in the sand. Their arguments (or reactions) tend to be based on a headline, a Daily Mail front page, rather than any sort of reading around a subject and seeing various factors are involved.
 
I guess it depends on how we define right wing. I would argue that salafist jihadists (you know, the ones that keep killing innocent people) are a lot more culturally right wing than anyone on this forum

now if that comment was aimed at me, I haven't aimed vitriole at any group, haven't called for the death penalty, haven't called for mosques to be burnt down, haven't called for deportations, or beheadings or for satirirsts to be murdered or indeed anything remotely extreme.

But the left see people like me as the problem - far less awkward than facing some home truths

I posted the Corbyn clip (I couldn't care less who circulated it) because I did take issue and serious offence at the idea that western societies are responsible for lunatics wanting to blow up their kids at gigs or discos or on trains. Lunatics who have grown up in free and privileged societies that are the envy of the developing world.

if that makes me a "reactionary right winger" (whatever the hell that means) then so be it, rather that than a spineless coward like Corbyn

Ah yes Western-Saudi policy, it is very controversial. I don't like the regime. It is nasty. But realpolitik etc - your enemy's enemy is your friend. The Middle East is a murky place as every idealist who comes to power soon finds out. I would rather deal with Iran which has an educated middle class and is showing tentative signs of reform. But then Iran is allied to Syria. It gets complicated. I wasn't a fan of Iraq war either. But then again 9/11 preceded that. Violent Islamism was well-rooted long before the West got involved in the Middle East so stop using that as your excuse.

You think this started with 9/11? Seriously?!! You cannot be that naive?! Osama Bin Laden was trained and armed by the Americans to use in their war against Communists when the Soviets moved in Afghanistan. When they got involved in supporting and then opposing tribal factions in the Middle East, they started a shit storm that we still see today. It was a common practice even before Reagan to support and destabilise Communist regimes across the world and Afghanistan was one more example of that. We even know that Bush senior had a hard-on to remove Saddam Hussain after the first Iraq war and used the 'Weapons of Mass Destruction' fiasco as an excuse to invade after 9/11. Even further back The British has a horrific history of interfering in that region for their own Imperialist gain. I suggest you watch Afghanistan: The Great Game on Netflix to explain this better than I could (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4895744/?ref_=nv_sr_5) or as WIC has suggested Bitter Lake on iPlayer (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4393514/?ref_=nv_sr_1) or even Hypernormalisation also on iPlayer (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt6156350/?ref_=tt_rec_tt) to also see the political gamesmanship that went on in Libya well before 9/11. For an example of the hidden war being fought by American special forces watch Dirty Wars (also on Netflix) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2532528/?ref_=nv_sr_1). Does this justify the heinous crimes we see monthly in our Western cities? Of course not, but, as has already been said, when Western governments invade and attack other countries covertly, they have to expect a response. How would we feel if countries secretly entered ours and assassinated or destabilised our governments, or kidnapped and tortured citizens? Our continued interference in that region has only brought about and will continue to bring about more and more suffering for both parties and yet the madness continues......
 
You think this started with 9/11?

I cited 9/11 because it preceded the second Iraq war (the apparent reason Madrid got bombed in 2004, in revenge for Aznar supporting Bush) - so the date is significant. Am well aware of what preceded it. Yes, Clinton deserves a rap for taking eye off the ball. And you could argue that the hardmen Assad, Mubarak, Saddam were the tyrants that glued societies together through fear but you could also argue that these societies were on the edge anyway as the Arab Spring demonstrated (and there's a whole debate to be had about the destabilising influence of globalisation, social media and tech on arab countries)

the problem is there was no inevitability though in the chain of events - and nothing to explain the descent into savagery against indiscriminate targets on European streets. Now there may be cells with a vague political grievance (possibly young guys who have never been to either a mosque or the middle east) but there is no obvious connection between a guy in Luton and a guy in Riyaadh, nothing to explain why people in Europe with no generational link to the M-E and who have grown up watching EastEnders should could care less, let alone commit murder.

which is where the brainwashing and the culture struggle and my previous posts come in - just too simplistic to say "what you reap you sow" - there is something deeper and darker at play that we don't understand
 
which is where the brainwashing and the culture struggle and my previous posts come in. there is something deeper and darker at play that we don't understand

I think if you're a westerner with psychotic-homicidal tendencies and you happen to have a Muslim-background, then ISIS and the like provide a very convenient vehicle for exercising those tendencies, to the extent which other ethnicities/ideologies don't.

There are exceptions of course, Anders Breivik being the obvious one who springs to mind.
 
The people that blame the west for this stuff seriously need their heads checked. Let's just pretend we stopped bombing the terrorists, you really think they would stop blowing themselves up?

I say lock up or ship out any radical Muslim or ISIS supporter.
 
@Neo95gt flip your post on it's head:

The people that blame Islam seriously need their heads checked. Let's just pretend we stopped blowing ourselves up, do you really think the West would stop bombing us?

See how we are caught in a neverending cycle of killing and hate.
 
I am certainly not blaming the West for the horrific attacks we have seen recently in Western countries any more than I am blaming Muslim countries for those attacks.

The vast majority of people in both Western and Muslim countries are innocent people who simply want to go about their lives in a peaceful way.

The blame for this must lie with those small groups, be they Fundamentalist Islamic groups or shadowy governmental organisations that are playing power games and manipulating situations/tribal rivalries for their own gain.
 
The people that blame the west for this stuff seriously need their heads checked. Let's just pretend we stopped bombing the terrorists, you really think they would stop blowing themselves up?

I say lock up or ship out any radical Muslim or ISIS supporter.
Prison is too nice for them. This is where most of the radicalisation takes place. The law needs to change, if you have got 6k on the watch list and can only arrest when a crime is commited then that is just an accident awaiting to happen. . .

We should just go and declare a state of emergency, we would be able to raid houses without a warrant which would be a great start. France have done this and have made massive gains and found loads of intellegience and weapons. I think we also should be investigating mosques up and down the country for safe measure to make sure that no radicalising is going on and we can weed out the ones doing it if there is any.

Actions are required, talk is cheap. What else can be done to prevent this happening again? We have got troops ready to guard the palace and the like. But why?

They already have protection, its the innocents and general folk that are getting hurt, sometimes without sounding nasty it will take a politician or member of the royal family to be targetted for the hierachy to do something about it.
 
The trouble with those suggestions, is that if you give your government the power to raid without warrants, then you are on a slippery slope.

What would be the purpose anyway? If they have enough intel, obtaining a warrant will not be a problem in any case. Or are you suggesting the police should just be battering through any random door on the off-chance a terrorist might be there??? Seems very reckless and not very well thought through
 
Or are you suggesting the police should just be battering through any random door on the off-chance a terrorist might be there??? Seems very reckless and not very well thought through

It's not going to be any random door is it though? Surely if you are on a terrorist watch list; you have displayed behavior or have links which warrant you being on there?
 
It's not going to be any random door is it though? Surely if you are on a terrorist watch list; you have displayed behavior or have links which warrant you being on there?

yeah, so just get a warrant? what benefit is there of not needing to get one?
 
The trouble with those suggestions, is that if you give your government the power to raid without warrants, then you are on a slippery slope.

What would be the purpose anyway? If they have enough intel, obtaining a warrant will not be a problem in any case. Or are you suggesting the police should just be battering through any random door on the off-chance a terrorist might be there??? Seems very reckless and not very well thought through
The current situation we have isn't very well thought through though either, and if it did work. I wouldn't of suggested the current idea....of course, if the muslim population helped us and weeded out the ones who they suspect then this action wouldn't be required. But whats the chances of that happening?


Heres a few examples of mosque raids I have found.



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...e-mosques-in-security-crackdown-a6757596.html

https://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2016/08/french-mosques-islam/493919/
 
The current situation we have isn't very well thought through though either, and if it did work. I wouldn't of suggested the current idea....of course, if the muslim population helped us and weeded out the ones who they suspect then this action wouldn't be required. But whats the chances of that happening?


Heres a few examples of mosque raids I have found.



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...e-mosques-in-security-crackdown-a6757596.html

https://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2016/08/french-mosques-islam/493919/

Do you think all Muslims know eachother? That they've got some sort of Whatsapp group going? Actions like the ones you recommend will only persecute innocent people who have nothing to do with terrorism and don't know any terrorists. A ridicuous number of women die each week at the their hands of their husbands. Shall we blame all of the husbands friends for not knowing he's been abusing her? How often does a crime get committed and people who know the perpetrator say stuff like "he was just a ordinary bloke"? Why is it different for Muslims? Never mind Muslims who don't even know eachother. Obviously like anything there are cases where family and friends have a suspicion that something is up, and these cases do often get reported to the police. I believe the man arrested in London a few weeks ago with the bag of knives was reported first by people who knew him.

Raiding Mosques and houses will just criminalise innocent people. And do you know how many mosques there are in the UK that are just ordinary, decent places of worship? Like all the other churches, synagogues and temples in the UK. And as WIC said, if the authorities have intel on a person, they can search their house perfectly legally with a warrant. This all guns blazing approach is insane. This isn't a hollywood movie. State of emergency? Nothing like more fear to stoke the flames. And giving government more and more control over it's citizens is a very dangerous thing indeed. You think it won't affect you because they're only after 'the bad guys'; don't be so sure.
 
Do you think all Muslims know eachother? That they've got some sort of Whatsapp group going? Actions like the ones you recommend will only persecute innocent people who have nothing to do with terrorism and don't know any terrorists. A ridicuous number of women die each week at the their hands of their husbands. Shall we blame all of the husbands friends for not knowing he's been abusing her? How often does a crime get committed and people who know the perpetrator say stuff like "he was just a ordinary bloke"? Why is it different for Muslims? Never mind Muslims who don't even know eachother. Obviously like anything there are cases where family and friends have a suspicion that something is up, and these cases do often get reported to the police. I believe the man arrested in London a few weeks ago with the bag of knives was reported first by people who knew him.

Raiding Mosques and houses will just criminalise innocent people. And do you know how many mosques there are in the UK that are just ordinary, decent places of worship? Like all the other churches, synagogues and temples in the UK. And as WIC said, if the authorities have intel on a person, they can search their house perfectly legally with a warrant. This all guns blazing approach is insane. This isn't a hollywood movie. State of emergency? Nothing like more fear to stoke the flames. And giving government more and more control over it's citizens is a very dangerous thing indeed. You think it won't affect you because they're only after 'the bad guys'; don't be so sure.
Since France has gone into a state of emergency the results have been worth it.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/22/france-considers-extending-national-state-of-emergency



The Muslim community don't have to know each other personally, they have many Mosques and many people that use them, one could suspect?

Your right it isn't a hollywood movie, and you may offend people along the way of raiding houses that are innocent but it seems to me that most mps think it is a hollywood movie, attack happens - show solidarity, light a candle - pray all problems go away - repeat.

Whatever alternative is in place at the moment, isn't and will never work. And I am also offended by innocents getting blown up by complete and utter scum, so to me raiding houses isn't a problem, and if it makes the streets a little more safer knowing they've been caught before they attack then so be it.


What would you do to combat this threat?
 
Last edited:
Since France has gone into a state of emergency the results have been worth it.

The Muslim community don't have to know each other personally, they have many Mosques and many people that use them, one could suspect?

Your right it isn't a hollywood movie, but it seems to me alot of people think it is, because whatever alternative is in place at the moment, isn't and will never work.

What would you do to combat this threat?

If a state of emergency only affected the 'bad guys' then there wouldn't be such a problem but it doesn't, it affects all of us including me and you. And you may think that's fine if we're innocent of anything, we won't get bothered, but that's not how it works. You ever had any dealings with the Police? If you have you'll know that a lot of them could do with brushing up on their people skills. They can be arrogant, aggressive, forceful, and as been documented, violent. (They can also be kind, considerate and courageous). So if you're a homeless person getting your bags tipped out as part of a search, or a person of colour getting randomly stopped, this can be frightening and intimidating. If it happens once you might think "ok, it's worth it, they're doing their jobs". But then it ends up happening again and again, to people who've done nothing wrong. Imagine getting regularly stopped by police while you just go about your normal day? It gets irritating, frustrating and just pisses people off and creates division. And once you're in a state of emergency and the government has got these powers, it becomes more tempting for them to keep them and to expand them. People start getting arrested for all sorts of reasons, speaking out against the government, posting something the government don't like on twitter perhaps. You get an authoritarian government and volunteer to give up your rights and you're in for a kicking. You don't have too look to far to find countries where free speech is a long gone right, check out Turkey. Governments will go way further than we might imagine. It sounds over the top and far-fetched but I'm probably not even scratching the surface.

As for knowing people through Mosques, they probably know each other as well as we might know the other people that go to the gym with us. Extremists aren't just going around telling everyone their plans. Yes there may be signs of radicalisation but if you barely know someone how can you possibly predict that they're involved in something like that? Like I said, all the people who've been friends with or worked with or known serial killers or serial rapists or paedophiles, whatever, how would they necessarily know? Bloke who worked in the same place as me got done for child porn, should I have spotted something? It's not as cut and dried as people make out.

I agree that there needs to be a change with dealing people on watched lists, it's incredibly frustrating that this guy recently travelled to Syria and was known to authorities. When police are on to someone like that I'd like to think there was the capability to build up enough evidence to make a case against him before anything like happened. Deportation, prison (anti-radicalisation programmes are in place), I agree that more needs to be done to get them off the streets to start with. More police would help - cutbacks to the police force aren't exactly helpful. Spending £££ on trident while the real threat is here is baffling to me. But I don't believe in making the lives of innocent people a misery in the process.

Unfortunately there is no instant solution to this and im certainly not the person to give recommendations. I would imagine that stopping arming Saudi Arabia and getting involved in conflict would be a smart idea. As would focussing on healing the divides in this country that exist. The images from Manchester of communities coming together, of white people speaking up for their multicultural communities, stories of Muslims, sikhs, Christian's, those with no faith coming together to give free taxi rides, free food and drink, display solidarity at vigils - lots of people dismiss this as weak or foolish, I personally think it's a show of strength against Isis that they would despise. Not only does it defy them but it brings us closer together. People will call this lefty idealism, but I just think it's common sense. God knows further division wont solve anything.
 
Back
Top