Manchester bomb...

[Amp and Deck]

http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.or...wahhabi-roots-and-current-representation.html

The origins of nearly all of the 20th century's Islamic extremist movements lie in a new Islamic theology and ideology developed in the 18th and 19th centuries in tribal areas of the eastern Arabian Peninsula. The source of this new stream of thought was a Muslim scholar named Muhammad ibn Abd-al Wahhab, hence the name "Wahhabism."

 

[W_I_C]

^^^ this is actually the same teaching from the origins in which Curtis explains (unless I'm mistaken, will check when I get a chance)

Trouble is, does it explain strapping explosive devices to yourself and wandering into crowded places? That is very much 21st Century. The above is also very clear in stating it was a counter-movement which the majority of orthodox Muslims tried to expel.

It also adds narrative to why the overwhelming majority of people killed by ISIS are indeed (orthodox or moderate) Muslims.

And it also underlines that calls for UK Muslims to out people in their communities who are radicalised a bit pie-in-sky. A bit reactionary. A bit, well, not thought through.

Interesting reading nevertheless.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

but I notice you make no mention of sunni-shia divisions though, tribalism and the bitter enmity between Iran and Saudi Arabia, the major faultline in the middle east

the internal issues preventing Arab societies from joining the advanced liberal democratic world are the real source of the problem

And we'll happily sell the Saudis weapons to keep the conflict and human rights abuses going. We can't sit back and pretend we have no influence.

 

[Amp and Deck]

I agree WIC - the point about the muslim victims of jihad is significant.

I think only an absolute idiot or someone with a very sinister political agenda would try to portray all muslims as potential terrorists. Ancedotally, most muslims I come into contact with in BCN are traders or small business owners. Ok, you won't see them at the local bar, but it's very much live and let live. No real issues.

but there are also fanatics here too and the Spanish police have foiled many plots.

I posted that link because there are one or two people on the thread, who seem to think the west created jihad but the causes go way back. The West might have not helped and in some cases made things worse, but the real problem lies within the extremist sects, which is where attention should be focused.

 

[Amp and Deck]

And we'll happily sell the Saudis weapons to keep the conflict and human rights abuses going. We can't sit back and pretend we have no influence.

I agree, but I don't think that is the immediate issue here

 

[Johnny Vodka]

I agree, but I don't think that is the immediate issue here

It's an issue when you have politicians pretending to have sympathy with innocent victims so the populace think they're on the side of good (and vote for them). We have some of the most dangerous politicians in charge that I can remember - in this country and abroad. And people are taught to fear someone like Corbyn.

 

[Bonzo]

http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.or...wahhabi-roots-and-current-representation.html

The origins of nearly all of the 20th century's Islamic extremist movements lie in a new Islamic theology and ideology developed in the 18th and 19th centuries in tribal areas of the eastern Arabian Peninsula. The source of this new stream of thought was a Muslim scholar named Muhammad ibn Abd-al Wahhab, hence the name "Wahhabism."

An interesting read indeed and, a very proactive effort from a Muslim leader to engage with a Western audience. This is the kind of dialogue and that we need to have. The line from that link:

"the movement has manifested itself as armed insurrections throughout the world, especially where governments are weak and unable to resist aggression effectively."

This is where I think Western geopolitical forces have been to blame by destabilising regions and tribal power structures.

The Cold War wrangling for power in Afghanistan in the 80's led to a vicious five year civil war where the Taliban took control of the country. Prior to that in the 60's and 70's, Afghanistan had been a relatively peaceful country on the hippie backpack route. We saw more recently how a similar situation led to Islamic extremism to rise in Iraq. Western geopolitical meddling may not have created Islamic extremism but they have unwittingly allowed it to flourish.

 

[balearic joe]

This is where I think Western geopolitical forces have been to blame by destabilising regions and tribal power structures.

The Cold War wrangling for power in Afghanistan in the 80's led to a vicious five civil war where the Taliban took control of the country. Prior to that in the 60's and 70's, Afghanistan had been a relatively peaceful country on the hippie backpack route. We saw more recently how a similar situation led to Islamic extremism to rise in Iraq. Western geopolitical meddling may not have created Islamic extremism but they have unwittingly allowed it to flourish

Exactly this.

 

[Amp and Deck]

good piece by Rafael Behr - one of the better Guardian writers

the hazard of moral relativism. A well-trodden analytical approach follows the twisted trail of jihadi logic back to political grievance, Middle Eastern wars and blaming the west. Too often that method prioritises ineffectual academic fiddling at the roots of terrorism, when the pressing task is cutting the monstrosity down.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...debate-evil-democracy-politics-defence-terror

 

[W_I_C]

The genie is out of the bottle, and we need to go back to basics and look at the root causes.

Saying we need to "cut the monstrosity down" is a buzzphrase. It sounds like a great idea.. but what does it actually mean? What is he suggesting we do? More fire-power? More bombing?

Is anybody really going to vouch for any of those methods? Because they are short-term solutions, which in-time breeds more of the same. Counter-productive (and that's before we've even considered collateral damage.)

Maybe detaining suspects on a hunch isn't as permanent or damaging as those extreme examples. But it will surely increase tensions within those communities, breed more fear, more untrust, turn otherwise allies against us, and we're back to the beginning again.

 

[Amp and Deck]

what's the alternative though?

especially if cells are using ever more covert forms of communication or encrypting everything on TOR?

 

[W_I_C]

I don't have the answers. I just know we can't keep going around in circles.

We need to think outside the box. The whole policy needs an overhaul (clearly!)

In terms of technology, I cannot accept that they are ahead of the curve. We must have the advancement there. We must. How can we not? If we genuinely don't, than that is a failure of the highest degree. These extremists are anti-progress, and technology is the biggest progress of them all.

 

[Bonzo]

I don't think any of us have the answers otherwise we probably wouldn't be sitting discussing on an Ibizan forum.

For me personally, we have to stop covert and overt military action in that region. I simply cannot see how that helps this situation and can only provide evidence to extremists of us being the enemy.

I think we need dialogue with the Muslim community in the Middle East and at home. Most intelligent people here know that moderate Muslims are as horrified of the atrocities being performed as we are. So let's make it about ALL of society against the extremists.

I think points raised earlier make sense that more can be done on a practical level with known suspects is worth exploring but within existing laws perhaps in much the same way that you have a Sex Offenders register at the moment. Will this stop all cases - of course not but it stigmatises even exploring extremist material/groups.

Finally, and maybe because this is my area of expertise, provide counselling to vulnerable wo/men who are on this list. Work out why they are drawn to this heinous belief system and see if more needs to be done to make them feel part of society, not on the fringes of it.

 

[Nostalgic]

Excellent to see. I bet they are just as pissed off being branded "all muslims are terrorists etc"

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/more-than-30000-ahmadiyya-muslims-from-across-the-world-meet-in-the-uk-to-reject-isis-and-islamic-a7191306.html?amp

 

[Bungle123]

Excellent to see. I bet they are just as pissed off being branded "all muslims are terrorists etc"

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/more-than-30000-ahmadiyya-muslims-from-across-the-world-meet-in-the-uk-to-reject-isis-and-islamic-a7191306.html?amp

See and that's from August last year, I didn't see that getting any likes or shares on my Facebook, yet as soon as theres a terrorist attack all the anti-Muslim posts come out to play.

 

[Bonzo]

Excellent to see. I bet they are just as pissed off being branded "all muslims are terrorists etc"

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/more-than-30000-ahmadiyya-muslims-from-across-the-world-meet-in-the-uk-to-reject-isis-and-islamic-a7191306.html?amp

I think you know that we don't share many of the same viewpoints, especially on politics, but I like this link. Thanks for sharing. The only way we can get through this if we, as a society stand together, against the extremists especially on so solemn a week as this one.