Manchester bomb...

[Bungle123]

why don't you instead ask yourself why there are islamists in the first place? - people who are so twisted, they are happy (even ecstatic!) to murder children at a pop concert. trying to rationalise this by attacking the west's foreign policy is actually nuts, but you are so dogmatic you cannot see that, therefore far easier and more convenient to portray people like me as the real enemy

It's not rationalising anything to appreciate that the Wests role in foreign wars is a factor in extremism. It's simply a fact. It doesn't justify anything and there are many other factors at play, but to deny it is foolish. That's why it's so disheartening to see our government continue to support Saudi Arabia for example, to give the green light to bombing in Syria and Iraq.

Blowing up innocent children at a pop concert in the UK is barbaric. So is blowing up innocent children in the Middle East. People are rightly distraught and angry at the former. It leads to calls for internement camps (even for innocent muslims), for deportation ok UK citizens, and in some of more insane factions of the right wing meatheads, for war on the streets. When children are killed in the Middle East, you can't be surprised when you get the same reaction. They are two sides of the same coin.

Our foreign policy in recent years has solved nothing but has only bred more hatred. This is not a dogmatic viewpoint, it's sensible and level-headed. It doesn't excuse anything, it's simply accepting the factors that influence radicalisation and extremism and accepting that this is one thing that needs to change.

 

[DarrenW]

It's not rationalising anything to appreciate that the Wests role in foreign wars is a factor in extremism. It's simply a fact. It doesn't justify anything and there are many other factors at play, but to deny it is foolish. That's why it's so disheartening to see our government continue to support Saudi Arabia for example, to give the green light to bombing in Syria and Iraq.

Blowing up innocent children at a pop concert in the UK is barbaric. So is blowing up innocent children in the Middle East. People are rightly distraught and angry at the former. It leads to calls for internement camps (even for innocent muslims), for deportation ok UK citizens, and in some of more insane factions of the right wing meatheads, for war on the streets. When children are killed in the Middle East, you can't be surprised when you get the same reaction. They are two sides of the same coin.

Our foreign policy in recent years has solved nothing but has only bred more hatred. This is not a dogmatic viewpoint, it's sensible and level-headed. It doesn't excuse anything, it's simply accepting the factors that influence radicalisation and extremism and accepting that this is one thing that needs to change.

well said

 

[Amp and Deck]

I guess it depends on how we define right wing. I would argue that salafist jihadists (you know, the ones that keep killing innocent people) are a lot more culturally right wing than anyone on this forum

now if that comment was aimed at me, I haven't aimed vitriole at any group, haven't called for the death penalty, haven't called for mosques to be burnt down, haven't called for deportations, or beheadings or for satirirsts to be murdered or indeed anything remotely extreme.

But the left see people like me as the problem - far less awkward than facing some home truths

I posted the Corbyn clip (I couldn't care less who circulated it) because I did take issue and serious offence at the idea that western societies are responsible for lunatics wanting to blow up their kids at gigs or discos or on trains. Lunatics who have grown up in free and privileged societies that are the envy of the developing world.

if that makes me a "reactionary right winger" (whatever the hell that means) then so be it, rather that than a spineless coward like Corbyn

Ah yes Western-Saudi policy, it is very controversial. I don't like the regime. It is nasty. But realpolitik etc - your enemy's enemy is your friend. The Middle East is a murky place as every idealist who comes to power soon finds out. I would rather deal with Iran which has an educated middle class and is showing tentative signs of reform. But then Iran is allied to Syria. It gets complicated. I wasn't a fan of Iraq war either. But then again 9/11 preceded that. Violent Islamism was well-rooted long before the West got involved in the Middle East so stop using that as your excuse.

 

[DarrenW]

just a suggestion, but shouldn't we use this thread to remember the victims on Monday, night rather than sling mud at each other over the reasons behind it ?

It's a nasty business whichever way you look at it, but I hope we're all together in the belief that they won't divide us.

we need to keep going out to watch live music, to dance, to celebrate life. f*** them and their hate

 

[Bungle123]

I guess it depends on how we define right wing. I would argue that salafist jihadists (you know, the ones that keep killing innocent people) are a lot more culturally right wing than anyone on this forum

now if that comment was aimed at me, I haven't aimed vitriole at any group, haven't called for the death penalty, haven't called for mosques to be burnt down, haven't called for deportations, or beheadings or for satirirsts to be murdered or indeed anything remotely extreme.

But the left see people like me as the problem - far less awkward than facing some home truths

I posted the Corbyn clip (I couldn't care less who circulated it) because I did take issue and serious offence at the idea that western societies are responsible for lunatics wanting to blow up their kids at gigs or discos or on trains. Lunatics who have grown up in free and privileged societies that are the envy of the developing world.

if that makes me a "reactionary right winger" (whatever the hell that means) then so be it, rather that than a spineless coward like Corbyn

Ah yes Western-Saudi policy, it is very controversial. I don't like the regime. It is nasty. But realpolitik etc - your enemy's enemy is your friend. The Middle East is a murky place as every idealist who comes to power soon finds out. I would rather deal with Iran which has an educated middle class and is showing tentative signs of reform. But then Iran is allied to Syria. It gets complicated. I wasn't a fan of Iraq war either. But then again 9/11 preceded that. Violent Islamism was well-rooted long before the West got involved in the Middle East so stop using that as your excuse.

My first comment wasn't aimed at you in particular, just a general observation about various comments across the forum.

I'm not sure what 'home truths' you are referring to? I consider myself left-wing, I feel firmly rooted in the facts, I don't feel awkward about discussing anything.

If you take "serious offence" at the issue that Western foreign policy has a role in extremism then that's your call. I would argue it's simply a fact. Al Qaeda/Isis all use it as propaganda for their recruitment. It's literally out there as evidence. And I'm not using anything as an 'excuse', I believe I said it doesn't justify/excuse anything twice, although please do continue with your attempts to twist my posts into a defence of extremism. People are capable of completely condeming the actions of terrorists while recognising that our current approach to terror so far hasn't been successful. The 2003 invasion caused chaos in the Middle East which Al Qaeda exploited - their cause was strengthened and the invasion led to a direct outgrowth. ISIS in turn grew out of Al Qaeda in Iraq. Now the Saudi war in Yemen is another big gift to these groups and the UK have supported it. Same with the coup in Egypt, the state terror campaign since is another gift to terror groups. The 'war on terror' isn't making us safer. (There's a Twitter thread on this by a British researcher called David Wearing, I've used some of his points).

I'm interested in why you think exploring solutions such as not starting any more conflicts or escalating existing ones (e.g. a more peaceful approach to foreign policy) is cowardly or spineless. I would have thought that addressing the alienation that ISIS exploits would be a helpful step to take.

 

[ric]

There's an old saying...

I thought it was something along the lines of "treat others as you'd like to be treated"... So, i did a quick search on Google there now and it seems that the saying is actually from the bible (i wouldn't have known this as i absolutely hate all religion - it is the biggest cause of problems in the world, as well as being the biggest business in the world, but that's a story for another thread)...

Anyway, Luke 6:31... Do to others as you would have them do to you.

The problem is, we and others have bombed certain countries to pieces for years, including children's hospitals!!! Unfortunately now, it seems that the show is on the other foot... Of course, as always, we'll never see any of our "leaders" impacted by this!! They're perfectly safe in their security bubble and bullet-proof cars!! We'll never see the CEO's of weapons manufacturers being victim to terrorist incidents... No, it'll be the normal person on the street, doing nothing but trying to get on with their life!! Kids in a concert, kids in children's hospitals, workers in their offices, people out shopping...

 

[Bungle123]

just a suggestion, but shouldn't we use this thread to remember the victims on Monday, night rather than sling mud at each other over the reasons behind it ?

It's a nasty business whichever way you look at it, but I hope we're all together in the belief that they won't divide us.

we need to keep going out to watch live music, to dance, to celebrate life. f*** them and their hate

Agreed. I'm out.
The images and videos coming out of Manchester give me hope. Great great city.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Ah yes Western-Saudi policy, it is very controversial. I don't like the regime. It is nasty. But realpolitik etc - your enemy's enemy is your friend. The Middle East is a murky place as every idealist who comes to power soon finds out. I would rather deal with Iran which has an educated middle class and is showing tentative signs of reform. But then Iran is allied to Syria. It gets complicated. I wasn't a fan of Iraq war either. But then again 9/11 preceded that. Violent Islamism was well-rooted long before the West got involved in the Middle East so stop using that as your excuse.

Sales of weapons to conflict zones just keeps conflicts going and creates more refugees. You (yes, you Donald Trump - and his supporters) can't claim to mourn victims of atrocities while selling weapons to the Saudis and other govts in the middle east, knowing full well what they'll be used for. It's all about money to dodgy officials and arms dealers.

 

[JoshMags]

I do feel as if some people on this thread are trying to justify what happened.

There is a difference here; when the west bombs the middle east YES children may get caught up in it and killed (Not saying this is right) but that is unintentional.

2 nights ago children were specifically targeted and killed.

 

[Amp and Deck]

I do feel as if some people on this thread are trying to justify what happened.

There is a difference here; when the west bombs the middle east YES children may get caught up in it and killed (Not saying this is right) but that is unintentional.

2 nights ago children were specifically targeted and killed.

exactly - the comparison is outrageous

 

[Amp and Deck]

and I reserve the right to feel sad AND angry - when children are murdered how can anyone not feel angry?

peace 'n' love is all very well, but not when people are murdering children

 

[Johnny Vodka]

I do feel as if some people on this thread are trying to justify what happened.

There is a difference here; when the west bombs the middle east YES children may get caught up in it and killed (Not saying this is right) but that is unintentional.

2 nights ago children were specifically targeted and killed.

Point me to one person on this thread who has tried to justify it. I'm not convinced that either ourselves or countries we sell arms to (knowing they have shitty human rights records/commit war crimes) are all that bothered about civilian casualties or kids starving as a result of conflict. Different from 'targeting' but not something I want to be part of.

 

[W_I_C]

I can't see anybody comparing like-for-like or justifying. That is really twisting what has been posted.

Events done in our name elsewhere in the world are a prerequisite for the kind of scenes we saw in Manchester.

We all acknowledge that our society is susceptible to a propagandist media & government. So lets not be naive enough to think that isn't the same (or indeed, far worse) in other parts of the world.
I guarantee they would exploit the accidental bombing of a hospital as a deliberate act to further their own cause. So now do you see the point?

 

[Amp and Deck]

the problem is that there is a tendency to ascribe a direct linear trajectory between foreign affairs and what happens on European streets. Yet a lot of the guys drawn into these crimes are as much rejecting western society/lifestyles that they themselves have grown up in. eg changing appearance, repudiating discos, hating short skirts. So who is to say that western countries taking an isolationist path would make any difference, when the problem is as much cultural and about impressionable saddos being brainwashed like cult members.

 

[JoshMags]

the problem is that there is a tendency to ascribe a direct linear trajectory between foreign affairs and what happens on European streets. Yet a lot of the guys drawn into these crimes are as much rejecting western society/lifestyles that they themselves have grown up in. eg changing appearance, repudiating discos, hating short skirts. So who is to say that western countries taking an isolationist path would make any difference, when the problem is as much cultural and about impressionable saddos being brainwashed like cult members.

Agreed. I mean look at the attacks in Paris, especially the Charlie Hebdo shootings. That really had nothing at all to with western foreign affairs in the middle east.

I truly believe the old “but the west bombs the middle east” is used as a beeline way too much in situations like this when clearly there is a bigger picture here.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Agreed. I mean look at the attacks in Paris, especially the Charlie Hebdo shootings. That really had nothing at all to with western foreign affairs in the middle east.

I truly believe the old “but the west bombs the middle east” is used as a beeline way too much in situations like this when clearly there is a bigger picture here.

The causes are mixed. It is true that there are extremist elements to Islam. However, it is also true that creating and propagating conflict and displacement in the middle east has a negative effect.

And what is worse is much of this conflict is centred around making money via oil and arms deals.

 

[TimmiT]

No-one is trying to justify it, but the point is you have to try to understand what causes people to go and commit such atrocities in the first place. Simply saying they're all evil and we should lock them up achieves nothing, people brainwashed enough to be willing to blow themselves up are unlikely to be deterred by the threat of being locked up and there will be plenty more volunteers in their place unless you tackle the root cause of the problem. Part of this is to recognise that it's an extremely complex problem requiring complex solutions, which includes examining our own role in creating the conditions for these people to become radicalised. Unfortunately it seems many people are too stupid to understand the complexities of the problem...

 

[Amp and Deck]

No-one is trying to justify it, but the point is you have to try to understand what causes people to go and commit such atrocities in the first place. Simply saying they're all evil and we should lock them up achieves nothing, people brainwashed enough to be willing to blow themselves up are unlikely to be deterred by the threat of being locked up and there will be plenty more volunteers in their place unless you tackle the root cause of the problem. Part of this is to recognise that it's an extremely complex problem requiring complex solutions, which includes examining our own role in creating the conditions for these people to become radicalised. Unfortunately it seems many people are too stupid to understand the complexities of the problem...

I agree - but there has to be an honest appraisal of what is happening. too many on left have head in sand

you'll never hear Corbyn's Stop The War lot ever mention the atrocities in Kenya and Nigeria because it doesn't correlate with their view (ie that the wicked West are to blame for everything) and Charlie Hebdo "well they had it coming for being racist"

 

[W_I_C]

Charlie Hebdo "well they had it coming for being racist"

Charlie Hebdo were purely comical anarchists. They were apolitical in the sense they printed both right and left-wing pieces in the name of having a laugh.

I've seen both right and left defend/have a pop at them (in much the same way I've seen the right and left both claim the BBC is biased).

But freedom of speech is very much a characteristic of liberalism.

 

[W_I_C]

"Post-liberalism" though...