G20 Summit

[Morbyd]

*cough* *weeze* *splutter* *sneeze*

I'm iller than you.

You be illin'?

I believe you... I'm well enough that I went to work and 2 art gallery receptions today. Just figured I should stay in one night and try to get enough sleep to beat this thing. It's been dragging on for nearly 2 weeks and the massive chesty cough is quite annoying!

 

[MARKB]

OK, like capitalism or not, what does harassing the leaders of these 20 nations achieve? Most of them are busy right now trying to clean up the excesses of the past 20 years! We should be demonstrating in support of them... I think we all certainly hope they succeed.

For the record, I like capitalism. I like the idea that a guy with a good idea or someone who works hard, or even someone with a bit of luck, can achieve success and make a better life for themselves. Surely, the flip side is that there will be people who make it on the back of birth, connections or exploitation, but I don't mind that so much if everyone has opportunity. And, of course, there should be checks & balances in the system... it must be win-win for the working class as well as the entrepreneurial class.

Oh, this could turn into an interesting debate, but I digress.

I say send out the riot police with their batons and paddywagons and let them have a go

Bang On. I like civilisation. I don't want to be a hippy.

 

[Robder]

You can have a wash and just share a little more! Happy medium?

We don't have true capitalism any more anyway...the nature of it means it will always get greedy delusions of grandeur and implode on itself.

What we have now is totalitarianism. The people get poorer, quantititive easing means the banks get richer (no one else - it makes perfect sense to print more money and give it to the very people that got us in this mess eh? Go figure!? ) and we either end up in a deflation with money in short supply (no one can pay their mortgages and meltdown results) or hyper inflation = the market is flooded with money that loses its value because there's so much of it and the banks collapse and mortgages get written off! Bargain.

(...or the whole cycle starts again I guess and we end up where we were before.)

Whatever happens two things are certain:

* Those who stay as far out of debt as possible with prosper.

* Good intentioned people that attend the G20 demo will make lots of futile noise but financial collapse will happen regardless...so is there much point?!? I've no idea...It might be nice to go and watch the music I guess.

I'm sure loads of people will disagree but that's why these times are so exciting - no one really knows what the outcome of this mess will be.

Start putting cash under mattresses perhaps?

 

[Olly]

with robder on this

capitalism just screws the majority, enslaves people to 5hitey consumerism and thrusts crap brands down your face 24/7

you don't have to be a smelly crustie to recognise there's things you can do to fight the system in your own way - eg boycott supermarkets and buy stuff locally, fresh produce at markets, buy records in independent shops, avoid chain pubs, avoid corporate hellhole discotheques and CDs by uber-capitalist capital C kunts like oakenfold and akon and the stereophonics, boycott ITV and their mind-numbing, spirit crushing talent contests and the evil, hateful tabloids with their brainwashing, reactionary agendas.

There is an active counter-culture around the UK - people opting out and socking it to The Man. Join 'em.

....but people generally don't cos they're sheep, stuck in their comfort zones, marching to the Murdoch tune and so we are largely a nation of lemmings being taken over the cliff without even a whimper.

 

[Robder]

with robder on this

capitalism just screws the majority, enslaves people to 5hitey consumerism and thrusts crap brands down your face 24/7

you don't have to be a smelly crustie to recognise there's things you can do to fight the system in your own way - eg boycott supermarkets and buy stuff locally, fresh produce at markets, buy records in independent shops, avoid chain pubs, avoid corporate hellhole discotheques and CDs by uber-capitalist capital C kunts like oakenfold and akon and the stereophonics, boycott ITV and their mind-numbing, spirit crushing talent contests and the evil, hateful tabloids with their brainwashing, reactionary agendas.

There is an active counter-culture around the UK - people opting out and socking it to The Man. Join 'em.

....but people generally don't cos they're sheep, stuck in their comfort zones, marching to the Murdoch tune and so we are largely a nation of lemmings being taken over the cliff without even a whimper.

Oooh liked that! Let's meet and discuss. Starbucks TCR Monday at 6?

Glad to hear there's an echo out there tho!

The next few years are going to be interesting to say the least but on the plus side, we have the best seats in the auditorium! So let's sit back with a mojito (special brew?) and enjoy the vantage point I guess.

 

[MARKB]

Very naive, reactionary thinking on a lot of these points in my honest opinion.

The de-regulated banking and financial systems are certainly directly responsible for a lot of the current problems we are in.

But "capitalism" is what allows anyone with an idea, and the hard work to back it up to progress. It empowers rather than enslaves. Most of what you enjoy or experience is possible because of the market system we have in place.

The poor keep getting poorer do they? People have a tremendous amount of opportunity now. I'm glad i'm not of my father's generation or my grandfather's generation.

I know i'm going to put myself up for a lot of stick for saying this but i don't give a ****, but my father was a shipyard worker and my mother a nurse in the North east. My sister is a professor in London working with the world's top pharmaceutical companies and I'm an MD of a large company, own a bar, several other businesses, purely by hard work, luck and taking advantages of the opportunities out there.

Capitalism rocks, I'm sorry. Loads of small businesses feed from my business as mine has from others. People are employed , have better lives and pay more taxes. You are all employed, probably in a small business. Well, that's capitalism for you. They all want to make a profit.

I more than anyone will be affected by the credit crunch, but so ****, I've had it good, now I'll have to batten down the hatches and face this challenge.

Olly, you mention a list of things which are wrong with today's world, and i share your distaste.

But i'd be careful how many records you buy from independant records stores, because you wouldn't want them to do too well and end up being a big corporates in ten years time would you? Because given the opportunity, they would.

Big business has a lot to answer for, i want the world to be a fairer place too. I won't step foot in a Tesco, much to my missus' and friends amusement.

Changes can be made to make the world fairer, but slagging off capitalism is another form of red top thinking, without considering what it means.

 

[Olly]

I think the real myth is that capitalism offers opportunites for all. I think that it offers opportunity to the elite with the experience, the connections and the rich parents but some kid from a sink estate does not have the same opportunity as a private school kid and never will under the current system. Capitalism favours people who want to play the system but what about the weak, the dispossessed, the unmotivated - destined to forever work on checkouts and cleaning the crap off the circle line. But of course, we have the lottery and the illusion we can be rich and famous for the sake of it, the whole obsession with bling - desperate pathetic superficial affectations of wealth by people too stupid to realise they are mugs in the capitalist game. And of course lets not forget that cheap clobber in Matalan is made by some orphan in Bangladesh for 1p an hour.

The UK is gradually becoming a soulless, sterile place - no-go town centres at night, powerful brewers in charge of people's leisure time, big hypermarkets determining people's lives - it's totally, utterly immoral - people's individual identities are just being bludgeoned to death. Anywhere with character or charm bulldozed by the relentless march of King Tesco or Wetherspoon. The old boozers closing down, the old cinemas, the old terrace culture at football, all the old eccentrics on telly sent off to the knacker's yard and replaced by bland identikit Nicky Campbell clones, the pathetic english tourists in Barcelona often entire families clad in matching football tops when the Italian tourists have elan and style. The UK is fuked - seems to me as a country, we've lost our identity and so the brands have moved in to try and fill the vaccuum. And that is due to our 30 year obsession with consumerism. The rest of Europe is not like that - people in Berlin do not HAVE to OWN a property - people can rent and live fine. It's just us - Maggie's children still 'living the dream'... which is why our bankrupt economy is going to the wall now.

What is the alternative? I don't know - I'm not naive enough to believe you can topple the system - the whole house of cards would fall down and I don't fancy anarchy. Also councils/govt are so corrupt - they will always be at the mercy of big business. But there are countries in Europe who have more humane forms of capitalism - where people are just generally a lot more chilled and that's really where we ought to be.

 

[Morbyd]

Mark has, once again, crystallized my thoughts perfectly

Like Mark, only in a capitalist system would my brother and I have had the opportunities to do just a little bit better than my parents did. I've been able to see and experience things that they didn't have the opportunity to do. I think that's pretty darn special.

Olly - you have, intentionally or not - somewhat contradicted yourself. You've spoken of opting out, of being selective where you spend your dollars. That's what capitalism is all about! Different people using different business models. You have choice... big or small, indy or commercial, the charm of a mom & pop store or the consistent choice of chain establishments. Patronize those you like, and avoid the ones you don't.

Consumerism is only a problem if you're a dumb consumer. A consumer-based culture provides me with things I want. I want them not because I've been told I do, but because they add some value to my life. If other people are sheep, that's their problem.

 

[Olly]

the theory of capitalism is great - who can disagree with a single word Adam Smith ever wrote. CHOICE IS GREAT! but what I'm talking about is the REALITY which isn't about offering choice and is rather more about greed and crushing anything in your path

 

[Morbyd]

I think the real myth is that capitalism offers opportunites for all. I think that it offers opportunity to the elite with the experience, the connections and the rich parents but some kid from a sink estate does not have the same opportunity as a private school kid and never will under the current system.

Very defeatist attitude.

I'll give you an example. My dad grew up in the racist segregated South in the US. He used his little garden to grow vegetables which he sold on the street corner and paid for his first year of university, studied hard, and got a privately-financed scholarship for his remaining years. Worked 25 years at the phone company. Also worked as an estate agent on the side. He & Mom opened a couple of small businesses over the years too - neither did especially well. They never made it big, but they went from poverty to a nice middle-class life and sent their 2 kids to two of the top 10 universities in the country. Both kids have gone on to travel the world and be successful in their fields.

That's the upside of capitalism... and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

I'm not an entrepreneur... it takes a certain mentality that I've recognized I don't really have (ran my own business for a while at one point). But I have a lot of respect for people that are. Any other system would stifle that creativity, which is really the backbone of most progress.

 

[djchewie]

I think the real myth is that capitalism offers opportunites for all. I think that it offers opportunity to the elite with the experience, the connections and the rich parents but some kid from a sink estate does not have the same opportunity as a private school kid and never will under the current system. Capitalism favours people who want to play the system but what about the weak, the dispossessed, the unmotivated - destined to forever work on checkouts and cleaning the crap off the circle line.

what a load of tosh.

that's their choice, capitalism offers choice and opportunity for anyone regardless of race or social standing. my family came to the uk with **** all, and have done ok from nothing. its allowed me to go to university and get myself an education, to give me a better start in life for which im grateful, thats what parents do.

Its up to individuals to motivate themselves and be accountable for the choices that they make in their lives. there is opportunity all around, just takes hard work to find them.

stop gawping at the people who have what you ultimately want or emigrate to North Korea.

 

[djchewie]

That's the upside of capitalism... and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

me neither.

Capitalism rocks!

 

[Olly]

what a load of tosh.

that's their choice, capitalism offers choice and opportunity for anyone regardless of race or social standing. my family came to the uk with **** all, and have done ok from nothing. its allowed me to go to university and get myself an education, to give me a better start in life for which im grateful, thats what parents do.

Its up to individuals to motivate themselves and be accountable for the choices that they make in their lives. there is opportunity all around, just takes hard work to find them.

stop gawping at the people who have what you ultimately want or emigrate to North Korea.

that's so typical of Tories - "well I can do it, why can't everybody else?"

the same Tories who were happy to smash the mining communities in the name of the free market and leave massive unemployment and a heroin problem where there were once proud towns - and under whose rule, the gap between rich and poor got WIDER

if you seriously think we have equal opps in this country, you are DELUSIONAL

 

[MARKB]

that's so typical of Tories - "well I can do it, why can't everybody else?"

the same Tories who were happy to smash the mining communities in the name of the free market and leave massive unemployment and a heroin problem where there were once proud towns - and under whose rule, the gap between rich and poor got WIDER

if you seriously think we have equal opps in this country, you are DELUSIONAL

But you're judging the status quo against an impossible, unachievable, utopia.

There is a lot of inequality in this country, there always has been,there always will be.

But there's a whole lot more equality than two decades ago.

For someone who constantly puts people in boxes and holds such snobbish views of people's tastes, i don't think you'd like true equality. It would be hard to be as elitist as you if everyone was equal.

The people you slate for their choices of attire and holiday, may well be the same people who work on the checkouts and cleaning the circle line you transparently and ungraciously pretend to champion.

 

[Olly]

But you're judging the status quo against an impossible, unachievable, utopia.

There is a lot of inequality in this country, there always has been,there always will be.

But there's a whole lot more equality than two decades ago.

For someone who constantly puts people in boxes and holds such snobbish views of people's tastes, i don't think you'd like true equality. It would be hard to be as elitist as you if everyone was equal.

The people you slate for their choices of attire and holiday, may well be the same people who work on the checkouts and cleaning the circle line you transparently and ungraciously pretend to champion.

it's not snobbery at all - I am saying these people are victims of capitalism - they are being denied real choice. My tastes in music had got diddly squat to do with it, really. I don't choose to be elitist - it's simply frustration that so few people are exposed to wonderful and exciting music and are missing out on a key element of life and isn't part of the joy of music sharing that experience?

 

[djchewie]

that's so typical of Tories - "well I can do it, why can't everybody else?"

the same Tories who were happy to smash the mining communities in the name of the free market and leave massive unemployment and a heroin problem where there were once proud towns - and under whose rule, the gap between rich and poor got WIDER

if you seriously think we have equal opps in this country, you are DELUSIONAL

whys that wrong to think that? why's it wrong to have aspirations and actually achieve your own dreams and be rewarded for all your hard work?

there will always those who have and those who have not, and 99% of those who have will have worked hard in their lifetimes to get where they are.

life is a struggle always has been and always will.

if you seriously think everyone would want to live in some utopia where there is no money and everyone is happy and smiley, i suggest you freeze yourself and set your timer for 100,000 years time.

 

[djchewie]

it's simply frustration that so few people are exposed to wonderful and exciting music and are missing out on a key element of life and isn't part of the joy of music sharing that experience?

well maybe people choose to want to listen to other stuff.... or isnt that allowed in WollyWorld...

 

[Olly]

whys that wrong to think that? why's it wrong to have aspirations and actually achieve your own dreams and be rewarded for all your hard work?

there will always those who have and those who have not, and 99% of those who have will have worked hard in their lifetimes to get where they are.

life is a struggle always has been and always will.

if you seriously think everyone would want to live in some utopia where there is no money and everyone is happy and smiley, i suggest you freeze yourself and set your timer for 100,000 years time.

where did I say there was anything wrong in having aspirations???

some pretty shameless misrepresentation of what I said there

my objection is to fat cat tory types and their capitalist mates in the city routinely 5hitting on the international working class and then misleading people into thinking everything is ok. When it obviously isn't and we are nearly bankrupt as a consequence. Is it SO idealistic to want a more humane planet? Or are you so cynical you no longer give a 5hit...

 

[Olly]

well maybe people choose to want to listen to other stuff.... or isnt that allowed in WollyWorld...

again you distort what I wrote...

Time and time again I play stuff which people have never heard before because they didn't know it existed. And why? because mainstream radio ie what people put on at work and which is very influential tends to shut out the weird and wonderful in pursuit of cheap ratings.. In his heart, Pete Tong KNOWS that he plays 95% crap on Friday nights and it is that lack of sincerity that I find so grating.

Obv, people can listen to what they like - that's not my point. My objection is when decent gigs can't find bars to get their music heard because kuntstain bar managers want 3 haircut electro cheeze instead

 

[Robder]

Interesting thread brewing here!

I'm with Olly on this.