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white_isle_calling said:
Yeah you already gave that wishy-washy full of holes example

Any other ideas? Because you're starting to resemble the guy who screams, shouts and stamps with no substance
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I could say the exact same about you. You just keep saying: it won't work. Let's just agree to disagree instead of going round in circles.
 
white_isle_calling said:
The lack of those things didn't seem to bother you much back in March and April though ?
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I was against full lockdowns in march/april too indeed. And in that time it was just as clear as it is now that mostly really old people die from this virus. So back then I felt the measures were doing more harm than good. But...since it was a new phenomenon I could at least understand governments did not know what to do.
But at this point in time, it's just crazy to me we're doing the same damaging non-working measures again.
 
www.france24.com

‘They sacrificed the elderly’: How Covid-19 spread in Sweden’s care homes

Care home residents account for nearly half of deaths linked to Covid-19 in Sweden, a high proportion that health professionals and families of the victims have blamed on the government’s reluctance…
www.france24.com www.france24.com

Go Sweden !

ElrowLovers said:
I already gave some examples of what would be possible. Do not visit them until they get the vaccin. It's harsh, but needed to protect them. Even in a lockdown situation you can still catch Covid in the supermarket or from your children so just don't visit that vulnerable group. It's actually not that difficult, no masterplan needed.

Spain and Italy got hit hard because of the way they live with their parents/grandparents. Already mentioned the article about Danmark today.
In Danmark and Sweden everything is arranged with the children before, in between and after school. Grandparents are not involved in looking after them. IF and that's in capitals in these days...the Danish see their parents, they really keep their distance. They have dedicated shopping hours.
The second 'bump' is already over in Scandinavia. Life is back to normal-ish, restaurants and bars are open.
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Springal said:
www.france24.com

‘They sacrificed the elderly’: How Covid-19 spread in Sweden’s care homes

Care home residents account for nearly half of deaths linked to Covid-19 in Sweden, a high proportion that health professionals and families of the victims have blamed on the government’s reluctance…
www.france24.com www.france24.com

Go Sweden !
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Yeah. Go Sweden.
They are still holding on to their strategy, despite some articles in other countries virtue signaling comparing their own measures to Sweden.

And have you seen their numbers now compared to the rest of Europe? Have you ever considered in the end of the day we will have a few thousand old people dying from Covid anyway in every country....perhaps 10 - 20% more than in a regular flu season...but because of multiple lockdowns we have divided those numbers in so-called "Corona-waves".
 
ElrowLovers said:
So now the few people who dare to speak out their criticism on the current measures are naysayers?
I can see it's not going well. I also see that it's not as bad as it was in march...but perhaps it's worse than in a regular fall/winter flu period.
But shutting down public places, lockdowns, facemasks and framing young people that break the ridiculous rules as killers will not stop old people from dying from a virus.
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'Perhaps its worse' ??????
 
ElrowLovers said:
I could say the exact same about you. You just keep saying: it won't work. Let's just agree to disagree instead of going round in circles.
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I, as well as others, have explicitly told you why your idea will not work. If we thought that your v. non-descript idea would be practical or humane, i feel for sure that we'd be willing to try it.

I don't claim to have the answers either. The burden of proof lies with the claimant

Irrespective of whatever I think, do you honestly believe that no policymaker anywhere in the world hasn't already explored your idea and ultimately turned it down?
 
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ElrowLovers said:
I already gave some examples of what would be possible. Do not visit them until they get the vaccin. It's harsh, but needed to protect them. Even in a lockdown situation you can still catch Covid in the supermarket or from your children so just don't visit that vulnerable group. It's actually not that difficult, no masterplan needed.

Spain and Italy got hit hard because of the way they live with their parents/grandparents. Already mentioned the article about Danmark today.
In Danmark and Sweden everything is arranged with the children before, in between and after school. Grandparents are not involved in looking after them. IF and that's in capitals in these days...the Danish see their parents, they really keep their distance. They have dedicated shopping hours.
The second 'bump' is already over in Scandinavia. Life is back to normal-ish, restaurants and bars are open.
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It is harsh and not always in any way practical.
I'm a carer for both of my parents who have dementia. I have fought for the past 16 years for them to remain living in their own home. With daily visits from myself and carers they are able to maintain a level of independence whilst being in the comfort of their familiar surroundings. This is supported by their social workers who endorse that this is best for their mental wellbeing. Obviously visiting poses a risk of infection but I don't even want to begin to think what the alternative solution to this situation would be. Least worse case scenario would be them being put in to a care home but this would mean they would have to be separated. I don't see why we should be using vulnerable people as scapegoats.
 
I think, i hope, that one or more of the first gen vaccines shows promise and an exit to this absolute shit

If it doesn't, then maybe we need to think again. But as we've gone this long, we owe it to ourselves and the most vulnerable to wait that little bit longer

Certainly anybody hoping that governments across the world are just going to turn their back on their current strategy is going to be disappointed
 
433 pages on an Ibiza forum. It's supposed to be about happy times, holidays, moaning about the price of a beer or a flight cancellation, and we're discussing, instead, the why's and wherefores about the elderly dying.
I suppose it's one better than the 80's when most my age (your age now, mostly!) were reading pamphlets about "protect and survive" - a nuclear attack, not a virus.
 
2H76 said:
433 pages on an Ibiza forum. It's supposed to be about happy times, holidays, moaning about the price of a beer or a flight cancellation, and we're discussing, instead, the why's and wherefores about the elderly dying.
I suppose it's one better than the 80's when most my age (your age now, mostly!) were reading pamphlets about "protect and survive" - a nuclear attack, not a virus.
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It's not all been doom and gloom...seems years ago now but just a few months ago most of us were dreaming and hoping of a cheeky October Ibiza trip with delayed closing parties. This 2nd wave has really brought the doom and serious posts back.

Would love to re-read this thread one day, I imagine we'll be like 'did all that really happen'
 
ElrowLovers said:
Edit: to be fair...they and their parents should not visit their grandparents at this time in the first place. I've been saying that all along. We should really divide the elderly until they get the vaccin.
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Have to say you have zero understanding of what it is like to be elderly or what matters to people over a "certain age". Isolation from family is probably the single cruelest thing you could do to them.

So no, you should not. Younger people need to modify their behaviour and think of others rather than their selfish selves, and if that means doing without things which they enjoy or otherwise aspire to for a year or two with likely many more ahead in order to be able to safely offer company to their elderly parents or grandparents with considerably fewer ahead then that is, on the balance of things, a small sacrifice to ask of them. After all, many will be only too quick to be first in line when a windfall showers out of their elderly relatives' coffins.

Can't wait for the next pandemic when the boot is on the other foot and you are left all alone for weeks on end in your dotage following your own mantra. Hope you are ready to step aside for the younger generation and be isolated for a year .... for your own safety, you understand... unless you obligingly pop your clogs (alone and isolated) early to save the next generation some tax euros and divide up what you leave behind :rolleyes:
 
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