☣ Coronavirus ☣

[stivi]

I'd like to know why fully vaccinated Gibraltar, after having days of no new cases, suddenly had 13. I can't find an explanation, I hope it not an old folk's home and the virus has got through the vaccine. However, if those have had the vax, been found via testing and are unsymptomatic then that's OK; but s sudden spike like that is concerning.
Hopefully it's just a reporting backlog - the daily average is still close to zero, ther hasn't been a death for over a month.

I don't think everyone is vaccinated there, but rather everyone that wanted the vaccine got it (?)

 

[2H76]

I don't think everyone is vaccinated there, but rather everyone that wanted the vaccine got it (?)

Gibraltar is first nation to vaccinate entire adult population

All adults in the British territory have received both jabs, health secretary Matt Hancock confirmed on Thursday

www.standard.co.uk

Despite that report, some won't have I'm sure, and also spanish workers cross into Gib who may not be vaccinated - and also those who have been recently vaxxed and aren't yet immune.
But one group are absent, children, and as they aren't vaxxed they canclearly carry the virus so most of the 13 could be kids.
I really would like an explanation!
Actually, the more I think about it - kids went back to school after their hols so maybe that's the explanation, cases found due to testing in schools??

 

[W_I_C]

The fact is you keep bleating

lockdowns don't work
lockdowns don't work
lockdowns don't work
lockdowns don't work

Yet the only nations who are living an almost normal life right now are those who locked down fast and hard. Including nations who are significantly poorer and have more rudimentary healthcare systems than most of Europe

While the ones who are having a free for all... well

When will that penny drop?

 

[2H76]

The fact is you keep bleating

lockdowns don't work
lockdowns don't work
lockdowns don't work
lockdowns don't work

And the only nations who are living an almost normal life right now are those who locked down fast and hard

While the ones who are having a free for all... well

When will that penny drop?

UK didn't lockdown very quickly, both times - and the second one in Autumn was farcical, with tiers, individulal towns in lockdown and left forgotten, and the actual lockdown could have been a lot shorter had they acted sooner and harder in November/December. So, yes, lockdown worked but could have been shorter had the response been quicker.

Now we have the added benefit of over 50% of our adults vaccinated; and finally having decent restrictions on air travel in.

A lot of europe and countries have had successful lockdowns but could be back in trouble due to open borders, it's interesting that those in the centre eg. Germany, Netherlands, France are struggling, whilst islands and those on the extremities (Portugal for example) are doing very well.

 

[W_I_C]

Isn't that the point that freedom of movement across borders, whether that be within the EU block or the UK letting in flights from all over, isn't really a lockdown? It wouldn't be happening in South Korea, or Vietnam, or Australia or NZ at the height of their woes

Let's face it, if we had of taken that same hardline approach, it would've been tough and shitty(-er) for a good few months. But now...

Yes, hindsight is wonderful and we've all looked back and picked out what both we as individuals and our governments did wrong

But there's only one guy here continually banging his same solo drum loop in spite of the evidence in front of all our eyes

 

[Michael1982]

Problem also is, Germany for example hasn't really "locked down" the second time. It was always baby steps, starting in October and not a really "hard lockdown", with politicians being scared to make the unpopular choice before it was always basically a step too late.
Hospitality sector - which has been shut down here since November, I think - and smaller shops are the ones most affected, while companies are still allowed to have workers in factories the entire time, schools and day care centers are constantly on and off and no one really knows what is what anymore.
That is why it is not working here: It isn't a real lockdown but rather a closing of specific sectors and a set of lukewarm "recommentdations".

 

[kimajy]

Now we have the added benefit of over 50% of our adults vaccinated; and finally having decent restrictions on air travel in.

No we don't. Over 50% have had half a vaccination course which is enough to prevent most deaths and ICU admissions a month after that's completed in those people but not enough to prevent circulation and some transmission amongst and by them. UK's policy of a 3 month gap between jabs limits effectiveness especially with pfizer / moderna jabs because they seem to rely predominantly on an antibody response (vs T cell involvement) and this doesn't appear to hold up for that length of time. Pfizer do not recommend delaying second doses that long and there's a reason for it.

If you look at so-called vaccine passport situations it is very clear that people are only regarded as fully vaccinated after both doses of a vaccine and a further 15 days after receiving their second.

That is why it is not working here: It isn't a real lockdown but rather a closing of specific sectors and a set of lukewarm "recommentdations".

100% - there's too much public resistance to both vaccinations and lockdowns in Europe and Governments are scared of being harder line especially around election time.

 

[TimmiT]

it really irritates me when I read comments like this...

like there's some masochistic tribe of killjoys that enjoys any of this

Exactly, it's idiotic, clearly nobody is a "lockdown lover". Such comments just serve to show how poor the level of debate has become.

 

[TimmiT]

UK didn't lockdown very quickly, both times - and the second one in Autumn was farcical, with tiers, individulal towns in lockdown and left forgotten, and the actual lockdown could have been a lot shorter had they acted sooner and harder in November/December. So, yes, lockdown worked but could have been shorter had the response been quicker.

Now we have the added benefit of over 50% of our adults vaccinated; and finally having decent restrictions on air travel in.

A lot of europe and countries have had successful lockdowns but could be back in trouble due to open borders, it's interesting that those in the centre eg. Germany, Netherlands, France are struggling, whilst islands and those on the extremities (Portugal for example) are doing very well.

Portugal is doing well because it was in lockdown until very recently and it was very well observed in my experience, the compliance level was higher than in Germany with less apparent opposition and less covid denying nonsense. Germany, IMO, is suffering because of the bickering between the states and the lack of any kind of joined up thinking. I think the pandemic has shown up the weaknesses of a federal republic.

 

[2H76]

Exactly, it's idiotic, clearly nobody is a "lockdown lover". Such comments just serve to show how poor the level of debate has become.

You need to read the replies in papers like the Daily Mail or even my local rag...they are loving it. "Shut the pubs, clubs, shut the cinemas...permanently". I reckon they mean it - their lives must revolve along the dole and sitting in front of Sky and Netflix all day.

I wish I was making this up > but I've seen so many like that I look away to stop me boiling over.

 

[2H76]

Portugal is doing well because it was in lockdown until very recently and it was very well observed in my experience, the compliance level was higher than in Germany with less apparent opposition and less covid denying nonsense. Germany, IMO, is suffering because of the bickering between the states and the lack of any kind of joined up thinking. I think the pandemic has shown up the weaknesses of a federal republic.

I don't understand why a country like Germany has struggled so much. Sure the states have individual powers, but aren't the Germans noted for getting things done in an orderly manner?

 

[TimmiT]

You need to read the replies in papers like the Daily Mail or even my local rag...they are loving it. "Shut the pubs, clubs, shut the cinemas...permanently". I reckon they mean it - their lives must revolve along the dole and sitting in front of Sky and Netflix all day.

I wish i was making this up > but I've seen so many like that I look away to stop me boiling over.

Well, the comments section of the Daily Mail et. al. really is trawling the dregs of society, I'm not even sure why anyone would put themselves through the ordeal of reading them. In any case, I think it's safe to assume the kind of people people here in favour of locking down when required, based on scientific advice and evidence, are not the same ignorant twats ranting in the comments of their favourite racist rag.

 

[TimmiT]

I don't understand why a country like Germany has struggled so much. Sure the states have individual powers, but aren't the Germans noted for getting things done in an orderly manner?

That's a complete myth I don't really know why it's struggled to the extent it has during the second wave, but the adherence to the rules appeared to be less than in Portugal and there seems to be a considerable covid-denier movement, some of the stuff you read on-line is utterly baffling. They also didn't enforce quarantine at all in the time I was there either, half the time they never even bothered to collect the (paper!) forms you had to fill in. In Lisbon there are police everywhere, I'm not sure if it's always like this, but they are definitely enforcing compliance with the rules in a way I haven't seen elsewhere.

 

[Michael1982]

That's a complete myth I don't really know why it's struggled to the extent it has during the second wave, but the adherence to the rules appeared to be less than in Portugal and there seems to be a considerable covid-denier movement, some of the stuff you read on-line is utterly baffling. They also didn't enforce quarantine at all in the time I was there either, half the time they never even bothered to collect the (paper!) forms you had to fill in. In Lisbon there are police everywhere, I'm not sure if it's always like this, but they are definitely enforcing compliance with the rules in a way I haven't seen elsewhere.

I actually think compliance was very high in the first lockdown last year. Which is one reason why it worked so well (that and the fact it was early and strict).
The problem now is that through all the federal bickering (and everybody having to agree before anything gets done) and politicians scared of the unpopular choice, people have lost faith in any decision being made.

That and the fact that the division we have in society in general (which we already had pre-covid) tends to grow deeper, the longer this thing drags on.

You're forced to choose sides: either for or against the whole thing as those loudest are usually the ones in one camp or the other. Something which can be observed on this forum quite well, also...

 

[FlatErik]

not sure whether to laugh or cry

I would cry if it was my homecountry.
But it already baffled me you didn't really care about politicians lying to the German people about the probability of so many deaths, just to keep them under control.

 

[Sassette]

That's a complete myth I don't really know why it's struggled to the extent it has during the second wave, but the adherence to the rules appeared to be less than in Portugal and there seems to be a considerable covid-denier movement, some of the stuff you read on-line is utterly baffling. They also didn't enforce quarantine at all in the time I was there either, half the time they never even bothered to collect the (paper!) forms you had to fill in. In Lisbon there are police everywhere, I'm not sure if it's always like this, but they are definitely enforcing compliance with the rules in a way I haven't seen elsewhere.

when reading the Bild article shared yesterday I found this regarding the situation in Germany that I thought seemed quite comprehensive as to what caused waves 2 and 3 :
https://www.vox.com/22352348/germany-covid-19-coronavirus-pandemic

 

[NilSatis]

Ive waded through this thread time and time again. It seems that no one is just going to give up convincing the other side as a bad job! There was some good discussion on here but Im out now. Gonna go and moan about the absence of the old 1 free drink and free cabs (if four persons) deal on an "Its not as good as it used to be...." thread in open chat.

 

[FlatErik]

UK didn't lockdown very quickly, both times - and the second one in Autumn was farcical, with tiers, individulal towns in lockdown and left forgotten, and the actual lockdown could have been a lot shorter had they acted sooner and harder in November/December. So, yes, lockdown worked but could have been shorter had the response been quicker.

Now we have the added benefit of over 50% of our adults vaccinated; and finally having decent restrictions on air travel in.

A lot of europe and countries have had successful lockdowns but could be back in trouble due to open borders, it's interesting that those in the centre eg. Germany, Netherlands, France are struggling, whilst islands and those on the extremities (Portugal for example) are doing very well.

I agree that the basic model "lockdown" is not a one size fits all model, despite what EU governments think.

It all depends what you call a "lockdown".
There is already scientific research done where the outcome is that the basic measures are the most effective, washing hands, social distancing, working from home, facemasks in public transport. I think governments went full panic mode went they closed shops, schools, hospitality sector as a whole (not talking about nightclubs or big events).
All those economy-wrecking extra measures are not in proportion to the small extra effect. Actually...what we are seeing now is that the mayors of big cities want the terraces open as soon as possible, cause now people are mass gathering in parks on good weather days.

 

[The Sun God]

Ive waded through this thread time and time again. It seems that no one is just going to give up convincing the other side as a bad job! There was some good discussion on here but Im out now. Gonna go and moan about the absence of the old 1 free drink and free cabs (if four persons) deal on an "Its not as good as it used to be...." thread in open chat.

yep. we might as well just headbang for eternity

 

[BareBen91]

Thing is, we can look at Brazil and India and the lockdown lovers jump in with "lockdown, more lockdown" whilst you could look at Israel, Gibraltar, Portugal, UK and say "cases are low, the vaccine's winning, open up, open up".

The middle ground is to give as much liberty back to people as you safely can, not lock down because "just in case" and not open up places where covid will spread rapidly (and I don't think that's the case with hospitality) - open up safely BUT make absolute efforts to keep covid away by banning flights etc from red countries, quarantine, local testing and passporting.

Examples would be restricted capacity in pubs, sports, cinemas etc. If places can't do that because of the restricted income, then support them financially. better to pay a half-grant and be open than a full grant and be shut.

Meanwhile, get those jabs out and do whatever's necessary to get everyone in red countries vaxxed and stop this horrendous death toll. We will only truly have half a chance of normality when the whole world's adults are vaxxed; it's not good the likes of me looking at tables and saying "oh, they're doing well" when we are only as good as the worst country.

Superb post. You should be in charge!