☣ Coronavirus ☣

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ElrowLovers said:
Fully agree.
There is a dutch journalist who writes columns for the biggest newspaper in The Netherlands. She writes about this topic very often and argues that we should learn to accept death as part of life again. That includes choosing to let go the elderly when they catch Covid (or something else) instead of giving them an extra few months. Those extra few months are not even that enjoyable for them because they need to recover from the life sustaining measures you mention. Also, that recovery gets misunderstood for being long-covid or specific Covid-recovery, but it's just what ICU recovery is.

I see what you mean with being selfish, I think you are right and people can't let go of their relatives and we've also come to a point where we think we can manufacture and extend every life at all costs.
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Invasive care for people nearing the end of life is avoided in the UK anyway, I presume Netherlands exactly the same

You write like 90 year olds with dementia go to ICU
 
djmicd123 said:
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Sunak has already expressed discontent in the moving of the goal posts in respect of a return to how things were pre-Covid. Once all vulnerable groups are vaccinated and hospitalisations drop like a rock, there will be a big push for all industries to fully reopen, including festivals and nightclubs. The number of backbench MPs against these strict measures are growing by the week and I don't think a Tory government will continue to keep businesses closed when there is absolutely no pressure on the NHS.

Scientists may want more data on the long term results, but I don't think it can be justified from a economic standpoint.

If there are any social distancing or non-pharmaceutical interventions in place come late August / September I will be very disappointed and quite surprised (absent any developments like new variants etc).

I do agree with what others have said about international travel and how that is a much more complex situation, but again economic pressure will grow. Some countries' GDP is 15-20% tourism.
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All good points.

I think continued enforcement of Track & Trace could help bridge the gap between the economic needs and the scientists requirements. Unless you force businesses to collect Track and Trace data by law people become lazy and just forget. I think the data would be important in controlling any further flare ups in infections over Winter.
 
Digital2013 said:
All good points.

I think continued enforcement of Track & Trace could help bridge the gap between the economic needs and the scientists requirements. Unless you force businesses to collect Track and Trace data by law people become lazy and just forget. I think the data would be important in controlling any further flare ups in infections over Winter.
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The issue of course is that, once the general public are vaccinated, the number of people getting tests will drop significantly. People will be asymptomatic (or very close to it) and will not need to be tested, meaning there will be little to no need for a Test and Trace process... In theiry anyway!
 
Hally said:
Invasive care for people nearing the end of life is avoided in the UK anyway, I presume Netherlands exactly the same

You write like 90 year olds with dementia go to ICU
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Last time I said something about the lives of 90 year olds with dementia logically being valued less than a young healthy person I almost got tarred and feathered here so I won't get into this ;)
 
I think everyone's version of the world being 'back to normal' is different. At the same time you hear people saying 'we'll never be back to normal, as before' - This is probably correct, but not in the massive hyperbolic way they say. When the world is normal again people will be more wary of cleanliness and a few may wear a mask when they're ill as a courtesy, or some may avoid going in to work as they now understand how things like this spread. Whilst all of that means technically the world will never be how it was, that's not what that hyperbolic statement implies.

Back to my point of each person having a different view of normal, or almost normal. Most people have a clear drop in expectations in general currently due to a lack of things to do, so for some people being able to see their friends and family is enough for them to see it as almost normal. Some people though might view it as pubs without restrictions, clubs allowed open and barely any restrictions (Maybe face coverings on public transport and the like just as a safety net).

The headlines today have said that we may return to near normality in summer seem to have gained a lot of people moaning that we're not gonna drop restrictions before summer. Firstly it states that things will be released gradually, so the point is that by summer we will be at the end of the gradual release. If you thought we were just gonna drop everything and have no restrictions as soon as the over 50s are vaccinated then i'm sorry, but you're f***ing thick.

There seems to be a good chance that we will have very little restrictions in the summer(In the UK), closer to my 2nd scenario of someone's normal in the paragraph above and I think most people would be relatively happy with that. These people moaning need to understand the language of how things are put across, how to interpret it and that nothing will be absolute currently, no expert wants to be seen as doing a Boris by promising something that can't happen, being precautious with public health is their main priority.
For example when a trend is heading one way and it can clearly be seen that in 99.99% of possibilities it will end one way, someone like Chris Whitty will always caveat his statement by telling everyone that this isn't a promise and things can change because getting it right is more important than giving incorrect statements. Now take Boris Johnson, he's the opposite and will absolutely promise that something is gonna happen when it's a 50/50. 5/10 Boris Johnson will be wrong(probably more so as a 50/50 with Boris in charge is immediately weighted against you), Chris Whitty will be correct 10/10, as he promised nothing and caveated it, yet he seems to be the one that takes the pelters because he wasn't upbeat about it. If you interpret those two things of BJ promising me something with no data to back it up or CW telling me something should happen with all of the data to back it up, i'll take CW every time.
 
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JayDR8 said:
I think everyone's version of the world being 'back to normal' is different. At the same time you hear people saying 'we'll never be back to normal, as before' - This is probably correct, but not in the massive hyperbolic way they say. When the world is normal again people will be more wary of cleanliness and a few may wear a mask when they're ill as a courtesy, or some may avoid going in to work as they now understand how things like this spread. Whilst all of that means technically the world will never be how it was, that's not what that hyperbolic statement implies.

Back to my point of each person having a different view of normal, or almost normal. Most people have a clear drop in expectations in general currently due to a lack of things to do, so for some people being able to see their friends and family is enough for them to see it as almost normal. Some people though might view it as pubs without restrictions, clubs allowed open and barely any restrictions (Maybe face coverings on public transport and the like just as a safety net).

The headlines today have said that we may return to near normality in summer seem to have gained a lot of people moaning that we're not gonna drop restrictions before summer. Firstly it states that things will be released gradually, so the point is that by summer we will be at the end of the gradual release. If you thought we were just gonna drop everything and have no restrictions as soon as the over 50s are vaccinated then i'm sorry, but you're f***ing thick.

There seems to be a good chance that we will have very little restrictions in the summer(In the UK), closer to my 2nd scenario of someone's normal in the paragraph above and I think most people would be relatively happy with that. These people moaning need to understand the language of how things are put across, how to interpret it and that nothing will be absolute currently, no expert wants to be seen as doing a Boris by promising something that can't happen, being precautious with public health is their main priority.
For example when a trend is heading one way and it can clearly be seen that in 99.99% of possibilities it will end one way, someone like Chris Whitty will always caveat his statement by telling everyone that this isn't a promise and things can change because getting it right is more important than giving incorrect statements. Now take Boris Johnson, he's the opposite and will absolutely promise that something is gonna happen when it's a 50/50. 5/10 Boris Johnson will be wrong(probably more so as a 50/50 with Boris in charge is immediately weighted against you), Chris Whitty will be correct 10/10, as he promised nothing and caveated it, yet he seems to be the one that takes the pelters because he wasn't upbeat about it. If you interpret those two things of BJ promising me something with no data to back it up or CW telling me something should happen with all of the data to back it up, i'll take CW every time.
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I think they will probs have limits on mass gatherings and that until most adults been offered it.

There is real concern that if you leave a large % of the population to keep catching and passing it around themselves you end up with mutations that escape the vaccines.

That been said as they already planning new iterations for autumn with the seemingly common mutation (brazil one) it favours, so I think we might be alright.

End of summer we might be sick of peoples sweaty armpits in our face at the bar 😂
 
MrHullMysterious said:
I think they will probs have limits on mass gatherings and that until most adults been offered it.

There is real concern that if you leave a large % of the population to keep catching and passing it around themselves you end up with mutations that escape the vaccines.

That been said as they already planning new iterations for autumn with the seemingly common mutation (brazil one) it favours, so I think we might be alright.

End of summer we might be sick of peoples sweaty armpits in our face at the bar 😂
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I agree with this, however at the rate we're currently going and building to then we will have everyone that wants to be vaccinated done by mid summer (Supply pending). I still think they might be cautious to start considering everyone would be vaccinated, my main worry is if they were with travel to stop mutations, but as populist I don't think Boris would go for that as the gammons love a holiday too.

My current list of things that i'd like ASAP and when I expect them is

Gyms - Probably start of April.
Pubs - Start of May, probably with rule of 6 for a couple of months.
Foreign Holidays - I think travel abroad will be fine by June, dependent on where. Friends are booked to Ibiza mid July, to be honest I hope it gets delayed so we can stand a chance at a decent go at it in September.

Obviously i'd love festivals, clubs and the like but those are all hard to predict because of trade offs and the fact that large gatherings are an easy target to be classed as super spreader kind of events
 
JayDR8 said:
For example when a trend is heading one way and it can clearly be seen that in 99.99% of possibilities it will end one way, someone like Chris Whitty will always caveat his statement by telling everyone that this isn't a promise and things can change because getting it right is more important than giving incorrect statements. Now take Boris Johnson, he's the opposite and will absolutely promise that something is gonna happen when it's a 50/50. 5/10 Boris Johnson will be wrong(probably more so as a 50/50 with Boris in charge is immediately weighted against you), Chris Whitty will be correct 10/10, as he promised nothing and caveated it, yet he seems to be the one that takes the pelters because he wasn't upbeat about it. If you interpret those two things of BJ promising me something with no data to back it up or CW telling me something should happen with all of the data to back it up, i'll take CW every time.
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I much prefer hearing from Whitty or Vallance as they don't sugar-coat the issue. Johnson seems to absolutely hate giving bad news unless he can put a positive spin on it. As you say, that results in more long term problems when he fails to deliver on that positive part of the deal!
 
djmicd123 said:
I much prefer hearing from Whitty or Vallance as they don't sugar-coat the issue. Johnson seems to absolutely hate giving bad news unless he can put a positive spin on it. As you say, that results in more long term problems when he fails to deliver on that positive part of the deal!
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I would always rather listen to the person that is knowledgeable and able to put their point across eloquently. Amazing how Boris is meant to be some kind of brilliant orator, he's genuinely the worst I've heard in a position where they need to speak publicly as part of their job.
 
quick ibiza update - as mentioned a few days ago, we are past the peak of infections in this wave and numbers are going down (but we are still waaay to high). we now seem to be on the peak of deaths (at least I hope we are), 5 people died of covid in the last 24hrs here. it's the most we've ever had in one day. another number: this year so far 35 people died from covid in ibiza. it's the same number of people that have died of covid ALL YEAR last year here on the island!

spain as a whole is also slowly reducing in terms of contagion, but hospital pressure and deaths will still continue for weeks.
 
Hey all, hope you're all keeping well.

Just checking back in here and trying to catch up with everything. Been working away since just after boxing day and had pretty much zero wifi or anything. Sometimes its nice to be a bit locked off from the world. Just got home last week and couldn't remember my bloody login for this forum 😬

I've came home to yet another lockdown and my kids are off school and the missus working from home.

Unfortunately had a family funeral last thursday and it was a very strange affair indeed. Obviously with the restrictions there wasn't many there really. Also it was really hard not to shake anyone's hand, or even hug someone to offer a bit of comfort. Strangest of all was not being able to go down the boozer, straight after the formal ceremony, and see them off by getting blind drunk for the rest of the day.

One thing that came into my mind is I haven't actually seen most of my family for the best part of a year. and here we all were at a funeral staring at each other over our masks. The doctors gave my Auntie 6 months to live, but she's lucky if she seen 4 weeks. Pretty devastating, and you think you've done the right thing by staying away most of the year 😬 I wish I'd just fcuked it off in hindsight at the minute.

Anyone else been to a funeral during this Covid era? Along with one of the coldest and wettest of winter days, I found the whole thing very surreal.

We've all agreed to have a big piss up in the summer if we can, to give her a proper send off 👍

Now please excuse me while I try and catch up with everything on the forum. Apologies if you are getting notifications from me for liking, lol'ing or love'ing your posts from weeks ago.

Onward and upwards for 2021, hoping there is a way out of this. I'd like my life back please. Don't feel like I'm living at the moment, merely feel like I'm existing.

Take care lads n lasses.

Antony 👍

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Hally said:
Yes, prioritising older people is both morally and economically the right thing to do. You're thoughts?
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Another Dutch ICU doctor...even better Head of the ICU of the Amsterdam VUMC strongly disagrees.
His entire article in the Dutch paper today is very noteworthy, but this is a quote I wanted to share with you.

“Six hundred patients on the IC and 1600 in the rest of the hospital are currently disrupting an entire population, an entire country. This has been the case for a long time now. And now we have the corona vaccine. Again, there is scarcity, so we have to make clear choices. And here too I am disappointed again. Until now, the Health Council has always advised distributing the first vaccines to the most vulnerable in society. The minister adopted those advice. Yes, the health care workers eventually got a vaccine too, but after a lot of pressure, eh. I find it inconceivable that in such a huge crisis we are the first to distribute our scarce vaccines among 100, 90 and 80 year olds, the target group that hardly or never ends up on the ICU.
 
Another quote from this mornings article with Armand Girbes, head of ICU Amsterdam University Medical Centre shines a light on the discussion we had about postponing other healthcare:

“We now know so much about the corona virus. I estimate that in the second wave on average 25 percent of the corona patients die on my IC. That is an average survival rate of 75 percent. Treatments are now being postponed for patients who now have much higher chances of survival. As a doctor, all patients are equally dear to me. I will treat everyone as best I can. I now take very good care of the people who face me. But the people who don't face me are now being disadvantaged. Those are the corpses under the tree. There is no one to stand up for them. ”

But hey...he's just the head of the IC unit of one of our biggest hospitals in The Netherlands. And the other ICU doctors that ElrowLovers dude mentioned yesterday were from Winterswijk and Nijmegen, never heard of those places. And a collective of doctors who are pleading to relieve the measures in The Netherlands cause it's doing more harm than good...they must be crazy. Certainly there is no doctor in the UK or anywhere in the world who would agree with them. 🤷‍♂️
 
Reading those quotes in full, I'm not convinced they support your argument as much as you think they do. In any case, where was this guy when you were pulling right wing Russian propaganda sites out as evidence?
 
it’s almost like a strict lockdown and curfew means that there is a low number (600) admission of ICU patients in the Netherlands. Either that or the Dutch are immune to COVID?

waste of good ICU beds really so they might as well crack on and ease restrictions. It’s amazing by someone with a ‘I’m smarter than you’ attitude through all of this misses this very simple point


ElrowLovers said:
But hey...he's just the head of the IC unit of one of our biggest hospitals in The Netherlands. And the other ICU doctors that ElrowLovers dude mentioned yesterday were from Winterswijk and Nijmegen, never heard of those places. And a collective of doctors who are pleading to relieve the measures in The Netherlands cause it's doing more harm than good...they must be crazy. Certainly there is no doctor in the UK or anywhere in the world who would agree with them.
🤷‍♂️
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Maybe the Dutch are just super smart and can see through this whole covid hoax ? And the medical workers on this forum and putting to many people on ICU wards who don’t need it ?
 
ElrowLovers said:
But hey...he's just the head of the IC unit of one of our biggest hospitals in The Netherlands. And the other ICU doctors that ElrowLovers dude mentioned yesterday were from Winterswijk and Nijmegen, never heard of those places. And a collective of doctors who are pleading to relieve the measures in The Netherlands cause it's doing more harm than good...they must be crazy. Certainly there is no doctor in the UK or anywhere in the world who would agree with them. 🤷‍♂️
Click to expand...

Maybe the Dutch are just super smart and can see through this whole covid hoax ? And the medical workers on this forum and putting to many people on ICU wards who don’t need it ?
 
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