☣ Coronavirus ☣

[djmicd123]

There's one doctor from Winterswijk and three from the Radboud University Medical Centre in Nijmegen.
Also the doctor collective that is mentioned has doctors from all over The Netherlands combining forces to let their voice be heard about the current approach. It's a whole different thing.

In Winterswijk, there are currently 5 confirmed cases of Covid. The average number of confirmed cases per 100,000 inhabitants per day is just 17.

With respect, I'm sure this particular doctor isn't seeing the day-to-day struggle that many ICU's around Europe are facing right now. I know first hand that Liverpool ICU's have been severely overwhelmed for best part of 2 months.

 

[Hally]

In Winterswijk, there are currently 5 confirmed cases of Covid. The average number of confirmed cases per 100,000 inhabitants per day is just 17.

With respect, I'm sure this particular doctor isn't seeing the day-to-day struggle that many ICU's around Europe are facing right now. I know first hand that Liverpool ICU's have been severely overwhelmed for best part of 2 months.

Nice fact finding

 

[2H76]

I know! I have become a recluse

I popped out today for a little walk and to drop stuff off at an office. Things were going great until 10 yards from home when I nearly stepped in the biggest dog-do dump in town. Why can't everyone have cats who bury their own???

 

[Hally]

Please read the facts before trying to frame the article as click-bait? This was published by all big Dutch newspapers yesterday.

There's one doctor from Winterswijk and three from the Radboud University Medical Centre in Nijmegen.
Also the doctor collective that is mentioned has doctors from all over The Netherlands combining forces to let their voice be heard about the current approach. It's a whole different thing but they do support this discussion.

I don't really care if their views are not shared by ICU people in the UK. I think it's very brave of them to step forward. I think it's a very good sign even doctors say this is going too far. Their opinion is shared by many many non-doctors.

So back to your plan. Reduce ICU covid admissions, 70% or so chance of survival, so we can have more cancer treatment?

In reality saving people primarily in their 50s and 60s by letting other people in their 50s and 60s die

With no effect on lockdown

Not a great plan

 

[Moha]

On plus note I've got my jab scheduled for Sunday .

I was are you like really sure? Apparently they going a-z through their vulnerable list now as well ahead in these parts

On ++ note getting mine Feb 10.

 

[2H76]

On ++ note getting mine Feb 10.

Save some for me....

 

[djedwardsmith]

@CraigyB just to echo what @Hally said, the treatment plans are extremely effective for the majority of people who end up admitted with Covid Pneumonia. My mam's just returned home after 6 days, Covid free and on the mend. Will be a long way back to normal with the damage it did to her lungs but in the grand scheme of things, it's been a great day.

Also, having muted that one person, the last three pages have mostly just looked like Hally is having a breakdown arguing against his own posts and to be honest, it's been a much more enjoyable read.

 

[FlatErik]

In Winterswijk, there are currently 5 confirmed cases of Covid. The average number of confirmed cases per 100,000 inhabitants per day is just 17.

With respect, I'm sure this particular doctor isn't seeing the day-to-day struggle that many ICU's around Europe are facing right now. I know first hand that Liverpool ICU's have been severely overwhelmed for best part of 2 months.

Perhaps that's the reason he is ONE of the many doctors in the collective staying sane and not going along with the tunnelvision.
If all you see is Covid patients, you start to think it's the only thing in the world we need to take care of now. And it isn't.

Every story or opinion can be twisted and framed every way we want to. I think it's a relief to see even doctors doubting the current policy. I hope it's a movement that gets more followers asap.

 

[Hally]

I'll summarise then

It's not a choice between normal (cancer etc) care and Covid unless we leave people with covid just to die at home, in their 60s, 70s, 80s. I presume nobody wants that?

So the suggestion was restrict access to ICU, which only takes people with a good chance of survival already to allow cancer etc treatment to take place. Meaning you let people in their 50s and 60s with Covid definitely die to improve the chance of survival of people in their 50s and 60s with cancer

Do you still suggest this as a viable option Elrow?

Also, further to your point above, literally nobody in healthcare thinks only about Covid. It's just in the way a bit with all the beds and everything being taken

 

[FlatErik]

Also, having muted that one person, the last three pages have mostly just looked like Hally is having a breakdown arguing against his own posts and to be honest, it's been a much more enjoyable read.

Because muting people who have a different opinion than you is the best thing to do! That's what forums are for.
Especially when it comes to topics such as freedom restricting lockdowns and measures we should all have the same opinion and follow up orders, not doubt it or discuss it! Or bring sensitive or harsh discussion about healthcare to the table. If you do that... you must be nuts. Then you're not even worth listening too. Then you automatically value your own opinion above the other by muting the other person.

This is what happens to people everywhere in the world who have a different opinion or criticize the current policies. They get framed as the crazy ones. Even if people such as doctors, psychologists, former government members show any sign of concern with the current Covid-climate they get waved away as not worthy to listen to.

Dangerous behavior.

 

[Hally]

Because muting people who have a different opinion than you is the best thing to do! That's what forums are for.
Especially when it comes to topics such as freedom restricting lockdowns and measures we should all have the same opinion and follow up orders, not doubt it or discuss it! Or bring sensitive or harsh discussion about healthcare to the table. If you do that... you must be nuts. Then you're not even worth listening too. Then you automatically value your own opinion above the other by muting the other person.

This is what happens to people everywhere in the world who have a different opinion or criticize the current policies. They get framed as the crazy ones. Even if people such as doctors, psychologists, former government members show any sign of concern with the current Covid-climate they get waved away as not worthy to listen to.

Dangerous behavior.

I'm trying to discuss

 

[djmicd123]

If all you see is Covid patients, you start to think it's the only thing in the world we need to take care of now. And it isn't.

My uncle sadly died of Covid in October. He was 55 and otherwise in good health (not overweight, not a smoker). Certainly not an old 55 - quite the contrary. Can you explain to me why you believe his treatment and care is less important than somebody with cancer? You seem to be suggesting that cancer treatment is far more important than Covid treatment.

Also, if there was no lockdown, the virus would rip through the community and cancer patients would be forced to shield indefinitely. Cancer treatment would be cancelled as the virus would be so prevalent that it would be impossible to treat them - doctors have it, nurses/carers have it, other patients have it etc.

So, on the one hand, you express concern about the lack of treatment for people with illnesses such as cancer but, at the same time, advocate for an end to lockdown which would obviously be disastrous to those concerned.

 

[kimajy]

What itches me about your posts for the second time now is the belittlement of the effects.
A lot of people lost their jobs, lost their companies and investments, all of their saving money. This has caused depressions, divorces or will cause divorces as soon as people have the money again to pay for the divorce. We just got presented estimated numbers of child molestation in The Netherlands. More than doubled compared to previous years because kids are home, parents are home, stress = explosive combination.

I get all of that and I've been severely hit financially and emotionally. Business will probably never recover. Despite all of that these are extraordinary times and the thing about relative youth and health is that both allow you to rebuild. What's happening now may be shocking to someone who has not lost everything and had to start again in their lives, but I am no stranger to that it has happened to me twice over my lifetime due to political instability or due to family issues respectively. Massive mental problems and emotional distress. But I am still here and have had to make the best of it. It;s not as if I am unaffected by the issues you raise. But I also get that this ultimately traces back to a natural disaster and I'm not calling for others to die needlessly so I can suffer a little less.

I reiterate all these 1st World problems are not in the same league as what happens every day in poorer countries, or during wars etc. As far as child molestation (seeing as you are singling out a highly emotive example to fluff up your point) it's up to the social services and police to do their jobs and get the kiddie fiddlers in jail, whether they are parents or other people.

 

[kimajy]

Or perhaps certain family members will realize it's time let 90+year old grandma go instead of putting her on oxygen.

That'll be the same ones who are sick and tired of waiting for their legacies for starters. It's a very slippery slope and nothing short of thinly veiled euthenasia without consent. Some would see that as manslaughter.

 

[W_I_C]

Reality is... I do not need to have a fully development solution when I criticize our current profound world leaders with their lockdowns.

This reminds me of the Irish sea border discussions re: Brexit and the dozens of leavers who phoned into LBC radio insisting that there was a solution, yet none of them could give any specifics on what the solution actually was

 

[kimajy]

I'm like WTF?

You have to vaccinate them first. They're just going to get everyone sick - herd immunity be darned!

Or just keep them off school for longer. Secondary school children are 7 times more likely to infect a household than adults according to UK press conferences some weeks ago. That is why the schools are closed now. It's a difficult balancing act not least because a lot of those parents (teenage and early 20s pregnancy cohort excepted !) will be in their 40s these days, the very age group likely to wind up in ICU depriving a family of its income stream and not on the radar for vaccination for months. Maybe make more sense to vaccinate the parents ?!!

 

[metropolis]

Thank f*** I'm not your granny.

I don't want to be kept alive at the age of 90 by my relatives who ultimately can't say goodbye to me out of selfishness ;-)
Thank you for not being my grandson

 

[Hally]

This reminds me of the Irish sea border discussions re: Brexit and the dozens of leavers who phoned into LBC radio insisting that there was a solution, yet none of them could give any specifics on what the solution actually was

Most of the anti lockdown arguments just dont stand up to any scrutiny (unsurprisingly, every government, every opposition party and the vastly overwhelming majority of the scientific community in the world being a bit thick seems unlikely)

It's no good complaining people wont enter into discourse and that you feel attacked but then when someone tries to have a reasonable discussion you disengage.

 

[JayDR8]

Most of the anti lockdown arguments just dont stand up to any scrutiny

This is just how people are these days, see brexit. Exactly the same. People don't need to back anything up they can just claim the other people are wrong and find someone somewhere in the world that agrees with them and that's enough for them.
When you try to pin them down they are flip flopping all over the place and you can't get them to discuss one subject, they'll keep changing the subject. One thing is for sure, they'll never admit they were wrong.

 

[NickyT]

I don't want to be kept alive at the age of 90 by my relatives who ultimately can't say goodbye to me out of selfishness ;-)
Thank you for not being my grandson

I don't want to be kept alive at the age of 90 by my relatives who ultimately can't say goodbye to me out of selfishness ;-)
Thank you for not being my grandson

And that's your right to not want to live to the age of 90. Others may want to. Equally their right.

People should have those conversations with their family, and if they feel strongly about it make a living will outlining what they want in terms of their care and life preservation.
It takes part of the decision making burden from the people closest to them, and at a time where emotions are heightened.