MrHullMysterious
Well-Known Member
On plus note I've got my jab scheduled for Sunday
.I was are you like really sure? Apparently they going a-z through their vulnerable list now as well ahead in these parts
☣ Coronavirus ☣
- Thread starter ibiza77
- Start date
- Status
On plus note I've got my jab scheduled for Sunday
.I was are you like really sure? Apparently they going a-z through their vulnerable list now as well ahead in these parts
FlatErik
Well-Known Member
Do you feel we have to prioritize the elderly with vaccinations in regards to this?
Hally
Well-Known Member
I'm still on health systems
You put forward the suggestion that we can improve the outcomes for cancer by reducing Covid care. Reducing numbers of very old in ICU is a non starter, they aren't there already, so what is your plan now?
You dont have to be an expert but you should be able to explain your view if you are willing to share it. This normal treatment vs Covid is something you hear a lot but makes no sense once you pick at it, think its worth picking at and more than happy to have a meaningful discussion (working from home today
)
Hally
Well-Known Member
Finish the first discussion and we can get back to this
Hally
Well-Known Member
I'm happy have relaxed discussion about it. Got the Wales Dementia Conference on in the background, very interestingOh no better allow even more excess deaths to prevent people getting divorced
better not to engage with trolls I say ...
He's been diagnosed with covid pneumonia and in hospital. Hopefully respond well to the treatment.
diver
Well-Known Member
Just “Jab n Go”Been trying to tell people here that it's no use our elderly being protected if they aren't overseas...as we still wouldn't be able to travel so there would yet more months without foreign travel.
Just a question, suppose throughout Europe everyone over 60 had been vaccinated - where would we all be r/e lockdown, travel, hospitality etc? Frankly I think there would still be excessive restrictions continuing until the numbers going to hospital (with covid) was about the same as would be expected for 'flu (etc) so they could carry on with all the other stuff they should be doing. To get that far then - what - 80-odd % of all adults would need the jab, and that won't happen until way after summer ends.
Just hoping in the meantime that some kind of domestic normality returns, travel, hotels, bars, beaches etc. Gonna turn Bournemouth's Studland Bay into Salinas in early July (hopefully). Anyone joining in??
Hally
Well-Known Member
Fingers crossed for him, most people respond really well to treatment
Hally
Well-Known Member
Okay so it looks like you're reduce Covid to increase cancer care idea has fallen apart so lets get on to this
Yes, prioritising older people is both morally and economically the right thing to do. You're thoughts?
FlatErik
Well-Known Member
That's your conclusion.
That surprises me. I thought we needed to relieve the pressure on the hospitals. Why aren't we vaccinating the age group that puts the pressure on the hospitals first then?
And economically? That age group is definitely not suffering from the economic disaster that is happening right now, nor can they do anything to help get it back on track.
Hally
Well-Known Member
What's your conclusion then? We can get back to vaccinations
How do we increase normal care by reducing Covid care?
FlatErik
Well-Known Member
Google translated one of the dutch newspapers from yesterday. Healthy discussion and some things in this article are being said for months by critics like myself but framed in the denial corner. I think it's a good sign this discussion is finally being held.
IC doctors: "Time is right to accept more corona deaths and relax measures"
The corona measures have major consequences and the time may be right to relax them. And then we as a society have to accept that more patients with corona will die as a result. That remarkable message comes from four IC doctors, who say that we have more damage from some measures than from the virus itself.
The intensivists Hugo Touw, Hans van der Hoeven and Alec Veenendaal of the Radboudumc in Nijmegen and Nynke Postma of the Regional Hospital Koningin Beatrix (SKB) in Winterswijk throw the proverbial bat into the chicken coop, by pleading for not just focusing on the IC, but look beyond the hospital when considering. Certainly now that the crisis has lasted longer and we are not getting rid of it yet.
“A large number of such patients nevertheless die or end up in heavy and long-term rehabilitation after a stay in the ICU. You have to ask yourself whether this outweighs the negative consequences that the corona measures have for other groups, "says intensive care professor Hans van der Hoeven.
Taking away important years of life
“What we may be doing now is that due to some corona measures we are taking away important years of life from large groups of people. This is offset by only a limited number of life years gained for some corona patients. ""
Interviewer: You make it very concrete. A diabetic who can no longer climb the stairs and gets corona, should perhaps not go to the IC anymore.
“You can't say that. A patient with diabetes and a stroke who has to be admitted to intensive care for a long time has a high risk of dying from this. Those who do survive enter a rehabilitation process of years with a very questionable outcome. Does what you deploy with this patient outweigh the negative outcome for many other groups in society? You have to think about that carefully. ""
The call for discussion is grist to the mill of internist Evelien Peeters, co-founder of the Doctors Covid Collective foundation, a group of doctors that has been advocating for some time to lift what they consider to be disproportionate corona measures. According to Peeters, it is not said that more people will end up in IC if measures continue to protect the most vulnerable groups. “And if you bet on much earlier treatment. But it is good that the discussion is now going to take place. ""
Medical leader acute care Dave Tjan of the Gelderse Vallei Hospital in Ede says he is "surprised" that his colleagues have now started the discussion. “This is up to politics. What we as doctors have to do is look at the medical side. The consequence of letting go of more measures is that we cannot all help the vulnerable anymore. We are already very critical of who we include on the ic. Whether we should select even more carefully is up to politics, not up to us as doctors. ""
IC doctors: "Time is right to accept more corona deaths and relax measures"
The corona measures have major consequences and the time may be right to relax them. And then we as a society have to accept that more patients with corona will die as a result. That remarkable message comes from four IC doctors, who say that we have more damage from some measures than from the virus itself.
The intensivists Hugo Touw, Hans van der Hoeven and Alec Veenendaal of the Radboudumc in Nijmegen and Nynke Postma of the Regional Hospital Koningin Beatrix (SKB) in Winterswijk throw the proverbial bat into the chicken coop, by pleading for not just focusing on the IC, but look beyond the hospital when considering. Certainly now that the crisis has lasted longer and we are not getting rid of it yet.
“A large number of such patients nevertheless die or end up in heavy and long-term rehabilitation after a stay in the ICU. You have to ask yourself whether this outweighs the negative consequences that the corona measures have for other groups, "says intensive care professor Hans van der Hoeven.
Taking away important years of life
“What we may be doing now is that due to some corona measures we are taking away important years of life from large groups of people. This is offset by only a limited number of life years gained for some corona patients. ""
Interviewer: You make it very concrete. A diabetic who can no longer climb the stairs and gets corona, should perhaps not go to the IC anymore.
“You can't say that. A patient with diabetes and a stroke who has to be admitted to intensive care for a long time has a high risk of dying from this. Those who do survive enter a rehabilitation process of years with a very questionable outcome. Does what you deploy with this patient outweigh the negative outcome for many other groups in society? You have to think about that carefully. ""
The call for discussion is grist to the mill of internist Evelien Peeters, co-founder of the Doctors Covid Collective foundation, a group of doctors that has been advocating for some time to lift what they consider to be disproportionate corona measures. According to Peeters, it is not said that more people will end up in IC if measures continue to protect the most vulnerable groups. “And if you bet on much earlier treatment. But it is good that the discussion is now going to take place. ""
Medical leader acute care Dave Tjan of the Gelderse Vallei Hospital in Ede says he is "surprised" that his colleagues have now started the discussion. “This is up to politics. What we as doctors have to do is look at the medical side. The consequence of letting go of more measures is that we cannot all help the vulnerable anymore. We are already very critical of who we include on the ic. Whether we should select even more carefully is up to politics, not up to us as doctors. ""
cunninghamali
Well-Known Member
I know! I have become a recluse
djmicd123
Active Member
For somebody who likes to use the term "fearporn", you have a tendency to reference the most obvious click-bait media articles. You also refer to "ICU doctors" as if these 4 doctors in Winterswijk have risen up and spoken for all ICU doctors as a collective. I can assure you that their views are not shared by ICU clinicians in the UK. Far from it.
FlatErik
Well-Known Member
Please read the facts before trying to frame the article as click-bait? This was published by all big Dutch newspapers yesterday.
There's one doctor from Winterswijk and three from the Radboud University Medical Centre in Nijmegen.
Also the doctor collective that is mentioned has doctors from all over The Netherlands combining forces to let their voice be heard about the current approach. It's a whole different thing but they do support this discussion.
I don't really care if their views are not shared by ICU people in the UK. I think it's very brave of them to step forward. I think it's a very good sign even doctors say this is going too far. Their opinion is shared by many many non-doctors.
- Status