☣ Coronavirus ☣

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diver said:
Can you provide a short summary of what YOU would do if you were the Prime Minister of any European country?

Lockdown, partial lockdown, no lockdown, masks, travel.......
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Already said this earlier and got ridiculed so not getting into long discussions but...

- First lockdown was (in hindsight...I was not pleased with it back then but ok) understandable
- in Summer we had time to prepare for second wave but we didn't
- Would never go back into lockdown, but really protect and separate the elderly and vulnerable.
- A test-society where only negative tested people can take care of that group
- Keep the economy in tact including hospitality sector (give the people some sort of bread and games)
- No big events until vaccin got rolled out. Once most vulnerable group is vaccinated, big events are back. Save the event industry.
- Masks advisory not olbigatory
- A lot more focus on working from home, give companies fines...not the youngsters who are meeting each other on the street.
- A lot more focus on our own responsibility to stay healthy and safe
- More focus on being outside, taking vitamine D etc.
- Definitly no rules for who you can invite to your home...it's a fundamental right.
- No travel bans but a test policy again, only with negative tests you can enter the country. Travel bans are killing the airline and tourism industry.
- Schools open as much as possible, perhaps in small divided groups per day, partial at school, partial at home.
- Acceptance that this virus is here and will kill part of the population. That's harsh and painful but unavoidable.

Does anyone still wants to take a look at Sweden? I know they got mentioned a lot when they had a peak...but who's talking about them now?
Stockholm shops and bars looking really busy.
 
Is your plan, in a nutshell, no ambulances or hospitals for Covid?

If so all ages?

And who decides the reason for admission is Covid? The ambulance I presume?

See any flaws yet?
 
ElrowLovers said:
My "solution" would mean not postponing other healthcare, so less Covid treatment.

Even a collective of ICU doctors here have said this is taking too long and we need to accept more deaths in relation to the other damage this is doing.
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Your contradictions really are very far reaching.

With your sentiments about older people having less value than that of a younger healthy person, I'm surprised that you have any regard for a cancer patient or any other individual with a serious medical condition.
 
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Hally said:
As I have said 37 times the only way your accepting Covid plan works is when you ring an ambulance they say 'sorry they are going to have to just suffocate to death at home'

Is that a serious suggestion?
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Perhaps.
It's already happening isn't it?
I heard a doctor saying on national television the other day...we are now vaccinating people in care homes, but they don't get taking into ICU units when they get Covid anyway. Their local doctor usually advises them to just stay in the care home and let the virus do what it does.
Just like the flu was called the old mans friend?

I'm not saying let everyone rot. I'm saying there is a percentage of people we might need to take that harsh decision about yeah. We cannot save everyone. We are trying to save everyone now...and apparently we are losing a lot of people because we are not even capable of diagnosing them.
 
NickyT said:
Your contradictions really a very far reaching.
With your sentiments about older people having less value than that of a younger healthy person, I'm surprised that you have any regard for a cancer patient or any other individual with a serious medical condition.
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It totally depends on. the age of the cancer patient doesn't it?
I'm talking about people at the end of their lives...vs people who might still have a chance of recovering and having 20/30 years ahead of them?
 
Hally said:
Doesnt it strike you as odd that no democratic or authoritarian government on the planet, as far as I am aware, has gone for the Elrow plan?
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I'm seeing lots of discussion on this matter lately.
I could send you the dutch article from ICU doctors here who are basically saying the same.
 
ElrowLovers said:
Perhaps.
It's already happening isn't it?
I heard a doctor saying on national television the other day...we are now vaccinating people in care homes, but they don't get taking into ICU units when they get Covid anyway. Their local doctor usually advises them to just stay in the care home and let the virus do what it does.
Just like the flu was called the old mans friend?

I'm not saying let everyone rot. I'm saying there is a percentage of people we might need to take that harsh decision about yeah. We cannot save everyone. We are trying to save everyone now...and apparently we are losing a lot of people because we are not even capable of diagnosing them.
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People already at the end of life may die at home, that's normal

Okay so ambulances dont come for everyone, is it a cut off by age or something else?
 
ElrowLovers said:
I'm seeing lots of discussion on this matter lately.
I could send you the dutch article from ICU doctors here who are basically saying the same.
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Article. Discussion. No government policy though. Anyone more interested in your ambulance plan
 
ElrowLovers said:
That's okay. To me it does indeed. And to healthcare professionals it does too. To police officers it does. To the army it does.
You could see it as some form of triage.
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ElrowLovers said:
That's okay. To me it does indeed. And to healthcare professionals it does too. To police officers it does. To the army it does.
You could see it as some form of triage.
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I could definitely see it as a lot of things.. A triage not being top of the list.
 
ElrowLovers said:
Perhaps.
It's already happening isn't it?
I heard a doctor saying on national television the other day...we are now vaccinating people in care homes, but they don't get taking into ICU units when they get Covid anyway. Their local doctor usually advises them to just stay in the care home and let the virus do what it does.
Just like the flu was called the old mans friend?

I'm not saying let everyone rot. I'm saying there is a percentage of people we might need to take that harsh decision about yeah. We cannot save everyone. We are trying to save everyone now...and apparently we are losing a lot of people because we are not even capable of diagnosing them.
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Still waiting on who gets left to die?

Who makes the decision and when?
 
Hally said:
I'm just trying to focus on this ambulance issue as it is central to your plan Elrow
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Yeah I know. You're trying to let answer every question you have about my criticism on the current policy and then fire back at my answers that they are impossible. That's okay :)

I don't really see an ambulance issue. Havent seen an ambulance shortage here in The Netherlands...I was talking about the fact that we might need to accept that there's a certain age group we should not transport to the ICU unit and put them on oxygen to give them a few extra months or perhaps a year of (recovering) life. Then we might save some healthcare capacity for other urgent non-covid healthcare.

So an ambulance will always take everyone to the hospital...I get that....but I think certain care homes will not even call the ambulance. Or perhaps certain family members will realize it's time let 90+year old grandma go instead of putting her on oxygen.
And if really needed triage needs to take place IN the hospital.
 
There is definitely an ambulance shortage here

There is a bed shortage

And a staff shortage

Lots and lots of 90 year olds die of covid now in homes. People near end of life tend to have plans in place

ICU is a separate issue anyway. Very few people over 75 go to ICU, average age 61

So your plan makes no impact at all on cancer and other care as planned

Await your reply
 
Reality is Elrow you are giving solutions that make no sense once you dig into them at all. You clearly have no idea how health systems work

If you disagree that's fine but let's stick to this subject; how would you make room for cancer treatment by reducing Covid treatment?
 
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ElrowLovers said:
So an ambulance will always take everyone to the hospital...I get that....but I think certain care homes will not even call the ambulance. Or perhaps certain family members will realize it's time let 90+year old grandma go instead of putting her on oxygen.
And if really needed triage needs to take place IN the hospital.
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Thank f*** I'm not your granny. :lol:
 
Hally said:
Reality is Elrow you are giving solutions that make no sense once you dig into them at all. You clearly have no idea how health systems work

If you disagree that's fine but let's stick to this subject; how would you make room for cancer treatment by reducing Covid treatment?
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Reality is... I do not need to have a fully development solution when I criticize our current profound world leaders with their lockdowns.
There's is another way. Like I said earlier, even ICU doctors are asking our government now to choose another way.
Every solution has its own problems. I do not have to be an expert in health systems to share my opinion.
 
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