London Bombers & Religion

Robder said:
silvia said:
BTW, yesterday 25 kids were killed in Iraq

Thanks Sil - that's a really good point! Glad you raised it.

The war on Iraq was inexcusable...an outright attempt to kill thousands of innocent people.

How are our world leaders any different to these terrorists?

...Granted, the war did generate some of the biggest protests of all time but I still got the feeling that people were thinking out of sight, out of mind & if it's not happening within my country or culture then I can turn a blind eye.


Good points...I saw some muslim kids in yorkshire interviewed on TV this morning, and, while they deplored the bombings, they echoed these views.

The difficulty is how to move forward from here. Stirring all this up is what these terrorists want.
 
Front page of the FT: 'He wasn't even religious, it can't have been him'

I also remember that one of the 'pilots' who flew a plane into the WTC had been traced to a strip bar on a number of occasions. To Mark B's point - these people aren't committing violence because of a strong belief in religion, it's through emotional issues that the 'masterminds' behind these attacks take advantage of.
 
Mark Sun said:
Front page of the FT: 'He wasn't even religious, it can't have been him'

I also remember that one of the 'pilots' who flew a plane into the WTC had been traced to a strip bar on a number of occasions. To Mark B's point - these people aren't committing violence because of a strong belief in religion, it's through emotional issues that the 'masterminds' behind these attacks take advantage of.

Isn't there a distinction between the people who physically commit the atrocities, who in all probability are disaffected and motivated primarily by politics, and those who "groom" them, who may well be "religious" fanatics?
 
synchronicity said:
Mark Sun said:
Front page of the FT: 'He wasn't even religious, it can't have been him'

I also remember that one of the 'pilots' who flew a plane into the WTC had been traced to a strip bar on a number of occasions. To Mark B's point - these people aren't committing violence because of a strong belief in religion, it's through emotional issues that the 'masterminds' behind these attacks take advantage of.

Isn't there a distinction between the people who physically commit the atrocities, who in all probability are disaffected and motivated primarily by politics, and those who "groom" them, who may well be "religious" fanatics?

Yeah absolutely, just found it interesting that those willing to lay down their lives for their religions may not be particularly religious in the first place!
 
I'm becoming less and less enthusiastic about religion as I get older. The amoutn of wars that are created, simply because of conflicting religions is ridiculous. From what's been happening in the UK recently, to the IRA, Serbia etc... I can't help but think if the world would be a better place if no-one had a religion? :confused:
 
Firstly, IMO there's just as much chance that these people talk absolute rubbish (or, say Jesus existed), than there is that they're not.

I see as us being "science/logical"-ists, but then that is what we see, and have been taught. From an individuals point of view, they are both the same, no?

Take death. For "people like us", we just disappear and physically disintegrate with no notion of afterlife.

Who are we to say these 72 virgins/heaven & hell (in whatever incarnation) don't exist?

I (try to) say live and let live.

Secondly, and in agreeance with Mr Sun, It was not religion which caused these people to do those atrocitiies, it was their ability to be weak or impressionable to be taught their beliefs which lead them to be suicide bombers. That's why I find it hard to get worked up about punishing them (althoguh now we know they were suiciders etc). Surely they had somewhat of a "diminished responsibility", although it could be argued that they were negligent for putting themselves in a position to get brainwashed. A whole different argument (isn't anyone (most) who murders insane etc?)

I'm sure everyone here's made a decision, say, when in love, which looking back, was laughable. Well, just think, that was just over "some bird (or fella)".

Imagine if someone who was a respected member of your community, and in fairness, a leader of everything you base your life around (i.e. head Muslim Honcho), (bearing in mind the fact their faith plays a much more important part in their life, more than women/work/cricket etc), (gradually, and with a very skilled method of teaching and maniulation) lead you to do these things. It's simply not that unbelievable.

Imagine if your Dad (or close family member) asked you to do somnething you'd rather not? Of course you wouldn't, but you can imagine over long term him fashioning your beliefs so from ridiculous, it becomes odd, then oddly believeable, then reasonable, then...

Sure Islam is the domain from where these people come, and it is religion which is the background to which these people can be brainwashed, but then the next logical phase of the argument is "Well, wouldn't it be better if we had no religion at all?", to which the answer IMO is a resounding Yes.

Purely on the basis of numbers of "normal" religious people, and the good it does them. It's hard to see in the light of recent (last 100 years even) poor effects religion has had on modern society. It has been the basis of our moral and ethical teachigs and law, and without it, we simply would not have the social cohesion and even technology we enjoy. Society, like it or not, IS based on religion.

Granted I see religion having a less and less influence on our life going forward long term, but then ask yourself what fills the void?

DO people just stop "believing" in something? No. Something will need to gradually take it's place, be it, say football team, geographical location (again), or, more realistically, Political persuasion.

Even from my point of view, I'd see much more reason for someone to start a bombing campaign on the grounds of getting someonw to "agree" (submit) to their political view. (although yes, it's conceeded that perhaps the sense of "afterlife" is that which primarily encourages suicide attacks).

Some people are just nutters. Simple as. You can't control it (ulitmately), legislate for it, or allow it, but you can expect it IMO.

Religion or not.
 
Robder said:
chewie_oo7 said:
from watching various news progs and "experts" on the subject its a bit of a grey area as the passage these animals use, is a bit foggy and depends on "interpretation".

Hmmmm - do you know where I can find out about it?

goto a mosque and find out. or look on the interweb.
 
chewie_oo7 said:
Robder said:
chewie_oo7 said:
from watching various news progs and "experts" on the subject its a bit of a grey area as the passage these animals use, is a bit foggy and depends on "interpretation".

Hmmmm - do you know where I can find out about it?

goto a mosque and find out. or look on the interweb.

Chewie I think it was you who, one week ago was blaming robder to post rumours or things that wasn't proved.

You are doing exactly the same right now and you are judging things without giving any argument. And your judging it's quite risky, btw :rolleyes:
 
silvia said:
You are doing exactly the same right now and you are judging things without giving any argument. And your judging it's quite risky, btw :rolleyes:

im not judging anything at the moment, just expressing an opinion, of what may or may not be the case. from sources ive seen and read on the media. hence my use of " 's.
 
Maybe she misunderstood you Chow, translation and all that.

I do agree that the stuff said last week was a bit silly because we didnt have the facts for certain and there was a lot of stuff that was said on speculation.

Sorry :confused:
 
if i could find a solution to the world problems i wouldnt be sitting here.

if these bombers were brainwashed, fanatasied or whatever you wanna call it, why dont we round up the people who spout this hatred?

oh, sorry i forgot, it because we live in a society where we value freedom of speech. so we cant without upsetting one portion of the populace who say it's an infringment of Human Rights and civil liberties. :rolleyes:
 
Until the recent attacks I assumed the same as everyone else, that somehow these brainwashed individuals wanted to cause problems in the western world etc but thats not entirely true. I nicked this off another forum because its a good read and something we should all know about:

Al Qaeda

The biggest myth we have in the west is that Al Qaeda is an organised hierarchical terrorist network headed by a few individuals who run the show.

This isn’t true

First you have to understand exactly what the term ‘Al Qaeda’ means. It comes from the Arabic root; qaf-ayn-dal, which literally translated means; a base, or a foundation, or it can mean a principle, a rule or a manner. Al Qaeda is a method

At the core of this myth is the idea that all these attacks we see are linked to a central organization.

We most likely believe this because it’s comforting to us. It says to us that if we can get rid of Bin Laden and his core group of associates then this will all go away, right?



The reality

There seems to be two ways of defining what Al Qaeda actually is. Both of them I believe, are correct, providing it’s made clear which definition you’re using.

The first way is to define Al Qaeda as the core group of individuals which surround(ed) Bin Laden. This group came to be in the 1990s and since 2001 has been massively weakened and all but disbanded. In terms of their relationship to events/attacks that are carried out today, they are nothing more than peripheral figures. Bin Laden included. As for their ability to orchestrate attacks, well it’s pretty much non-existent.

You have to understand that the emergence of this group and of Bin Laden himself has only appeared very late on in the life of islamic militancy.

The second way you could legitimately define Al Qaeda is as the idea, the concept. In this sense, if you define it as a whole series of individual groups comprised of Islamic militants, spread throughout the globe, then (in contrast to the former definition) Al Qaeda has become considerably stronger since the ‘war on terror’ began



Political activism through attacks as propaganda

Another major myth is that the attacks perpetrated by these islamic militants are designed to hurt western countries economically, to in someway cause their collapse or to bring about the death of as many non-muslims as possible

This isn’t true either.

The purpose of such attacks is to mobilise support in citizens in islamic countries that have so far decided to reject their message. That’s why the attacks are spectacular in their denouement. They’re nothing more than propaganda.

They don’t want to dominate the non-islamic world. The message that they constantly put out is one of being free, not of domination

I think it entirely reasonable to conclude that these militants are not stupid. They may be wrong, or evil but they wholeheartedly believe in what they are doing as being the only real means of affecting change

I believe, as I have always done, now more so than ever, that the US and Britain are fighting this ‘war’ in entirely the wrong way. They’ve put a tremendous emphasis on the military fight (the perfect recruiting tool for Islamic militants the world over) and overlooked the front on which they should really be focusing. That being the battle to win the hearts and minds of muslims. 99.9% of Muslims are not militants or terrorists. They are ordinary people. For the US and Britain, they are both their biggest ally and greatest weapon in fighting the ever increasing support for islamic militancy. It's a massive opportunity and they are managing to squander it spectacularly

Whilst religion is involved in this, it's not in quite the way I initially expected. The fact that these people are willing to die for the cause is not because they are brainwashed, I believe it is to do with 'Jihad'

Literally, jihad means doing one’s utmost to realize a goal. It is not the equivalent of war, for which Arabic and the Qur’an use qital. Jihad has a wider connotation and embraces every kind of striving in God’s cause. A mujahid is devoted to his or her cause; uses all physical, intellectual, and spiritual capacities to serve it; employs whatever force he or she can when confronting that which blocks his or her way; and, when necessary, dies for it. All of this is jihad, for it involves striving with the goals of obtaining God’s good pleasure and making His Word supreme.
--- taken from islamanswers.net

Al qaeda have a goal and these suicide bombers are so devoted to it that they are willing to take their own life in order to reach that goal. If put in a different context, a jihad could be a positive move such as doing your utmost to become a qualified lawyer and ace your exams. As mark said before 'For every attrocity committed in the name of God, there are millions more kindnesses done in the same name'. I dont think religion is being abused for a cause, I think the problem lies in that these methods are actually gaining support. In iraq's case I'm not sure how true this is, i dont know enough about iraq and the perpetrators to the bombings. I assume the attacks are being used for a similar purpose though.
 
Cripes, yesterday Hed Kandi, today this :lol:

I really can't see the analogy bewteen sport/football and religion/fanatism. Sport, while it may be used to teach 'good' values - ambition, teamwork etc., isn't a life encompassing ideology which kids are brought up to live by. No-one teaches you when you're too young too know any better that if you don't learn to do the long-jump properly you won't gain eternal hapiness.
 
Buckley said:
Cripes, yesterday Hed Kandi, today this :lol:

I really can't see the analogy bewteen sport/football and religion/fanatism. Sport, while it may be used to teach 'good' values - ambition, teamwork etc., isn't a life encompassing ideology which kids are brought up to live by. No-one teaches you when you're too young too know any better that if you don't learn to do the long-jump properly you won't gain eternal hapiness.

your always causing trouble you are :lol:
 
Buckley said:
Cripes, yesterday Hed Kandi, today this :lol:

I really can't see the analogy bewteen sport/football and religion/fanatism. Sport, while it may be used to teach 'good' values - ambition, teamwork etc., isn't a life encompassing ideology which kids are brought up to live by. No-one teaches you when you're too young too know any better that if you don't learn to do the long-jump properly you won't gain eternal hapiness.

Buckley being english you should know that for some people football is a religion, and in this group of people there's a minority who will take it to the limit
 
Buckley said:
No-one teaches you when you're too young too know any better that if you don't learn to do the long-jump properly you won't gain eternal hapiness.

thats because all them people have "Vanished".
 
silvia said:
Buckley said:
Cripes, yesterday Hed Kandi, today this :lol:

I really can't see the analogy bewteen sport/football and religion/fanatism. Sport, while it may be used to teach 'good' values - ambition, teamwork etc., isn't a life encompassing ideology which kids are brought up to live by. No-one teaches you when you're too young too know any better that if you don't learn to do the long-jump properly you won't gain eternal hapiness.

Buckley being english you should know that for some people football is a religion, and in this group of people there's a minority who will take it to the limit


Sorry, clicked to wrong button.

Buckley being english you should know that for some people football is a religion, and in this group of people there's a minority who will take it to the limit.

Religion, as everything in this live, if it's measured it's fine. Most universal values are into every religion
 
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