soulcompromise
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☣ Coronavirus ☣
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MrHullMysterious
Well-Known Member
Wow, parts of India are in meltdown (bit like Brazil too 
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kimajy
Well-Known Member
Wow, parts of India are in meltdown (bit like Brazil too
It's really awful .... this is what happens when lockdowns are either not put in place or are inadequately enforced, and totally irresponsible festivals etc. allowed to go ahead. India is in full-on panic mode and trying to frantically import vaccines now in response to its domestic crisis.
Vaccine export is some of the issue but the more important one is a failure to impose draconian lockdowns. Now the whole wider region along with global vaccine supplies are under pressure. It's time these manufacturers centered their operations in countries with limited national requirements or a responsible attitude to public health so the global system isn't dominated by one or two countries or blocks. It still staggers me that there are lockdown deniers out there, how many examples do we need ?
MrHullMysterious
Well-Known Member
But the super spreader events they have identified (religious events few weeks ago) where mass gatherings out side. They are perfectly safe. I guess the virus didn't get the memo....
FlatErik
Well-Known Member
Not really.
India is a country with 1.37 billion inhabitants and a really bad hygiene situation. 1500 people dying a day is not that strange looking at the death rate in other countries. Same goes for Brasil by the way, 211 million inhabitants..and still lots of European countries with more deadly cases per million inhabitants, like Czech, UK, Spain, Belgium, Italy.
Off course they are in trouble with ICU capacity and could become quick climbers in this ranking, but that has nothing to do with lockdowns. Every country had over a year to expand their healthcare in terms of beds and personnel.
Wanna check how Sweden is doing on that ranking? Not that bad without a lockdown despite what everyone here was claiming.
COVID-19 deaths per capita by country | Statista
COVID deaths worldwide were highest in Peru, topping a list that compares deaths per million in 210 countries worldwide.
www.statista.com
In the end we'll see that lockdowns haven't worked, just postponed deaths or divided them in different timeframes to maintain some form of icu capacity. But all the money that was spend on lockdowns, financial aid for the economy and now the. millions that get spend on 'test-based society' should have just gone to healthcare immediately to expand the icu capacity.
But the super spreader events they have identified (religious events few weeks ago) where mass gatherings out side. They are perfectly safe. I guess the virus didn't get the memo....
Outdoor gatherings are perfectly safe. There are multiple studies to be found on this. Only 1 in 1000 contaminations have happened outside.
With normal numbers and normal behavior that is. You should give someone a wet kiss or cough them right in the face to get infected in a park or on a festival terrain. But with 150 million people bathing in the Ganges river....that is something else. It's a ultra mega super spreader event and not to be compared to any other outdoor activity.
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kimajy
Well-Known Member
Not really.
India is a country with 1.37 billion inhabitants and a really bad hygiene situation. 1500 people dying a day is not that strange looking at the death rate in other countries. Same goes for Brasil by the way, 211 million inhabitants..and still lots of European countries with more deadly cases per million inhabitants, like Czech, UK, Spain, Belgium, Italy.
Off course they are in trouble with ICU capacity and could become quick climbers in this ranking, but that has nothing to do with lockdowns. Every country had over a year to expand their healthcare in terms of beds and personnel.
Wanna check how Sweden is doing on that ranking? Not that bad without a lockdown despite what everyone here was claiming.
COVID-19 deaths per capita by country | Statista
COVID deaths worldwide were highest in Peru, topping a list that compares deaths per million in 210 countries worldwide.
In the end we'll see that lockdowns haven't worked, just postponed deaths or divided them in different timeframes to maintain some form of icu capacity. But all the money that was spend on lockdowns, financial aid for the economy and now the. millions that get spend on 'test-based society' should have just gone to healthcare immediately to expand the icu capacity.
Outdoor gatherings are perfectly safe. There are multiple studies to be found on this. Only 1 in 1000 contaminations have happened outside.
With normal numbers and normal behavior that is. You should give someone a wet kiss or cough them right in the face to get infected in a park or on a festival terrain. But with 150 million people bathing in the Ganges river....that is something else. It's a ultra mega super spreader event and not to be compared to any other outdoor activity.
Outdoor events where either for example football fans shout, scream and hug each other in close proximity are not safe, nor are religious festivals where people are crammed in cheek by jowel so close together they can smell what each other had for lunch. These assessments only hold in strictly controlled scenarios with limited close contact and social distancing or where there's been prior testing. There is a clear and obvious link between such events with no prior testing or vaccination and mass spread. This is not your Amsterdam dance event where everyone went for a PCR beforehand it's a crammed-in free for all. Nor is it Hajj where all pilgrims had to be fully vaccinated in order to attend
India doesn't have the resources to lay on capacity for that many ICU beds, supplies and infrastructure - it's not a rich Western country. All this demonstrates is a complete lack of understanding about what most of the world is trying to survive on beyond a privileged view that Governments have unlimited borrowing capacity to spend beyond their means and an infrastructure ready to deliver.
I'm not interested in where Sweden is or isn't without a lockdown - they didn;t have the UK variant last Winter and have had to tighten up recently ... but they have unique characteristics in line with other Nordic countries like Norway against whom they fared considerably worse. We are talking here about India not Sweden anyway and most of the 2nd world has similar issues to them in terms of living conditions.
Culturally, 2nd and 3rd world countries are not known for adherence to any form of distancing hence why you need to lock people up in their own homes where any spread can be contained to their close relatives living there and not the wider population.
I genuinely don;t know how you can try to keep putting forward these spurious arguments which seem completely polarized at your own life or geared around impacts on your partying opportunities - this is not about a threat to your Dutch freedoms it's about clearly evident global effects no amount of manipulation of presentation can hide from. If you can't see that I have to surmise that you are blinkered (or wilfully blinded).
FlatErik
Well-Known Member
It's you who posted: This is what happens when you don't enforce a lockdown. I already mentioned that this religious festival and the health situation in India is something entire else, not sure what you're trying to prove with a reply just repeating what I said. No one was talking about test events, nor football stadiums. The risk of outdoor contamination is near zero, as pointed out in recent studies. It is not realistic and spreading of fear we don't need to extrapolate the situation in India to outdoor events as a whole.Outdoor events where either for example football fans shout, scream and hug each other in close proximity are not safe, nor are religious festivals where people are crammed in cheek by jowel so close together they can smell what each other had for lunch. These assessments only hold in strictly controlled scenarios with limited close contact and social distancing or where there's been prior testing. There is a clear and obvious link between such events with no prior testing or vaccination and mass spread. This is not your Amsterdam dance event where everyone went for a PCR beforehand it's a crammed-in free for all. Nor is it Hajj where all pilgrims had to be fully vaccinated in order to attend
And just to mention this here.....I actually despise the test-event that was held here in The Netherlands (not in Amsterdam). Apparently we are now sick until proven healthy. Once the vulnerable are vaccinated, normal events should take place again without medical segregation.
When facts don't fit your beliefs, you're not interested? Sweden DID have the UK variant and DID NOT tighten up recently...they enforced some local measures but nothing compared to the rest of Europe, everything stayed open. Yet their situation looks very good compared to the rest of the world. But now Sweden seems to be getting through this just fine..better than the UK, Netherlands, Germany, Belgium suddenly no one is talking about them anymore.
People who criticize the Covid-measures or lockdowns are being pushed in a corner of non-believers or crazy people. That happens everywhere and also on this forum, again and again. I don't see where in my replies you can conclude that it's about my life or my partying opportunities? Yeah about 700 pages back in the first lockdown week perhaps. But I am talking about our fundamental rights, our freedom, our welfare and our health. My arguments are based on sources I even post but...'you're not interested'.
2H76
Well-Known Member
I can't see how covid can be controlled in India until everyone is vaccinated - and that's a monumental test as it is. As alluded to, India is densely - make that very - densely populated, sanitation isn't the best (look at the Ganges - it's pure filth and folks bathe in it) and anyone with covid can barely be asked to isolate as they live in tiny accommodation with large numbers or family AND they can't possibly afford not to work.
Don't get me wrong, India is also a highly developed country with - I think - a space administration and some of the finest sports grounds (cricket/hockey) anywhere. But there are just too many in too small a space - the big cities and towns, and the majority are so poor. They can't cope. It's a total holiday for covid, dip your bread.
Don't get me wrong, India is also a highly developed country with - I think - a space administration and some of the finest sports grounds (cricket/hockey) anywhere. But there are just too many in too small a space - the big cities and towns, and the majority are so poor. They can't cope. It's a total holiday for covid, dip your bread.
FlatErik
Well-Known Member
Exactly.
And therefor I find it wrong to conclude that 'this is what happens with places without a lockdown' or post something about outdoor events being unsafe because of what were seeing in India.
It's a totally different situation. It says nothing about the lockdowns nor outdoor activities.
kimajy
Well-Known Member
Where did I compare it to European "outdoor activities" along the lines of going for exercise or a socially distanced walk in the park ? Outdoor mixing is NOT safe where people are in close proximity to each other for prolonged periods of time or crushing through bottlenecks in crowds etc. Taking studies from countries with strict rules and widespread restrictions teaches us nothing about the likes of that Indian festival beside the Ganges. We should very much extrapolate from that to events which are not either medically controlled or socially distanced until either rates are negligible or all attendees are tested/vaccinated. I hope as many Governments as possible keep clamped down on this for most of the year because that's how long it will take for vaccinations to take over sustainably.
As far as Sweden is concerned, it did much worse than COMPARABLE Nordic countries. If there happen to be socio-economic factors making it less vulnerable to higher rate escalation than the norm it is not a model for other countries to follow which are dissimilar. It's hardly done very well of late >>
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-highest-new-covid-cases-per-person-in-europe
If keeping everywhere open was the way, how do you explain the scale of the outbreaks in UK which happened precisely because we did NOT lock down early enough on both occasions and which were reversed pretty much as soon as we did. You hear very little resistance to lockdowns here because by now most people realize they were necessary, if unwelcome.
On lockdowns generally, how do you explain the fact that every time countries with surging rates go into lockdown, those rates start falling or flattening in a matter of days ? You can argue for other more complex approaches in societies capable of enforcement but that's simply not feasible most places. Lockdowns are a blunt instrument to deal with or prevent a crisis - and they work. How long they need to stay in place depends on how low Governments want rates to fall before they are lifted. That's up to them to manage.
I've read of load of stuff you post in support of your anti-lockdown stance but in the end, like many, I've come to accept they are a necessary (if unwelcome) short-term solution to give longer term strategies half a chance to work.... and to reduce the pool of cases in which mutations arise that undermine those measures too quickly. I am relaxed about the fleeting loss of "freedoms" for a couple of years of a lifetime. People lose freedoms during wars and this is not much different, it's just Western society these days is totally unaccustomed to not having everything on its own terms all of the time. It would be a lot easier all round if people just dug in, kept their heads down and stopped putting leisure and fun at the top of their priority list now and again. Just saying !
Freedoms are not an absolute right, they are a privilege, for millions of people in the world most of the time. They will come back when it's clearly safe for them to - and that is way off being right now. It's just a case of very impatient people clamouring to have things far sooner than objectively they really ought to expect to.
AntonioGeordio
Well-Known Member
I find India such a peculiar country.
Fully furnished with nuclear weapons, and indeed a space programme.
But still lack some of the very basic elements of sanitation and hygiene with many of its people living in abject poverty.
FlatErik
Well-Known Member
If you truly think your freedom is a privilege and is something your government will give you back, you'll be disappointed. What we gave away is not given back that easily. Your freedom is YOURS...off course is a human right. You were born a free human being, not a slave to the government. Yes millions of people in the world know no freedom, but that's because others have taken it from them. That fact does not make it a privilege for you.
The eagerness in people like yourself to give their freedom and rights away and just accept it in fear of something that is highly exaggerated by the governments and media to make us obey the rules is very disturbing. How quick we went from live and let live to snitching on your neighbors for celebrating their birthday or yelling at people in supermarkets because their face mask is under their nose....it truly echoes of something from the past where brainwashed people also just accepted what happened and looked away.
Impatient? It's been over a year. When it comes to your freedom and your quality of life you cannot be impatient enough.
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FlatErik
Well-Known Member
Quote from the article:
"However, while both infections and ICU patients have surged, Sweden’s death toll has so far not risen so sharply, a trend the national health agency said was due to many of the most vulnerable, particularly care home residents, now being vaccinated."
Again, no lockdown, everything stayed open and the UK, Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Italy....just to name a few did way worse.
How do you explain the US states that have opened up recently doing so well? Pretty much no difference with the rest of the states.
Johnny Vodka
Well-Known Member
TBF, you could say the same about the US, or even the UK to some extent - money spent on vanity projects when the basics (accommodation, healthcare) aren't in place for everyone.
AntonioGeordio
Well-Known Member
Although our sanitation and hygiene is well ahead, and we don’t have slums.
Which was my point
Money to spunk on pointless follies, but can’t flush a jobbie away.
God bless the freedom of Stockholm....
Rules apply to 31st May
General restrictions
The government has tightened a number of restrictions.
A maximum of four people can sit together at the same table in restaurants.
Alcohol sales are prohibited after 8 pm.
The maximum number of people who visit shopping centers, larger stores, gyms, etc is limited. The exact number is governed by the size of the room.
Most public events have been suspended and venues like cinemas, theatres, and concert venues may only hold up to eight guests at a time.
The Public Health Agency of Sweden recommends face masks in public transports.
Everyone who is able to should work from home.
All activities within the state, municipalities, and regions that are not necessary should be closed immediately. This applies, for example, to bathhouses, sports halls, and museums.
FlatErik
Well-Known Member
So you're now emphasizing exactly what I said right? Sweden is mostly open, even Stockholm. Restaurants are open, shopping centers and gyms are open, face masks are only recommended not enforced? Still more freedom than The Netherlands, Germany, Belgium, Spain and many more EU countries who are destroying their economy, messing with the mental health of their population AND still have a worse death toll
Still more freedom than The Netherlands, Germany, Belgium and many more EU countries who are destroying their economy, messing with the mental health of their population AND still have a worse death toll
‘Everything stayed open’ you said. Not the case and significantly more restrictions than say... the UK
FlatErik
Well-Known Member
Edited my post a little but you were quicker. Anyway....these are LOCAL measures, not even restrictions compared to the rest of the EU.
Everything actually did stay open, shops, terraces, restaurants. Facemasks not mandatory. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. They did not lockdown and did better than most countries that did lockdown. Long, repetitive lockdowns don't work, they just slow down the spread or create herd immunity in fases but do much more harm than good in the meantime.
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