☣ Coronavirus ☣

[djedwardsmith]

A judge has no opinion, a judge speaks justice. It's a court decision. If a judicial court decision on the lockdown doesn't matter...
Or if a whole bunch of healthcare experts on Boris Johnsons fearporn doesn't matter...

Then please stay in your own fear driven bubble forever with no contradicting opinions.

Every single judgement a judge makes is their own opinion - their opinion on the interpretation of the law.

What relevance is a judicial court decision on the effectiveness of lockdown? It's two entirely seperate matters.

Honestly, you're talking absolute garbage in here, and when you fail to defend your many flawed arguments you resort to "YOU ALL JUST DONT LIKE DIFFERENT OPINIONS".

 

[kimajy]

It isnt nonsense. You would not have the same opinion on policy if 30, 40 etc year olds were dying. You know it, I know it. You clearly judge younger people as more valuable than old and that is a form of prejudice (it's one lots have but I disagree and will say so). Its judging someone for one aspect of their being

Exactly this. Ageism is rife in Europe and although less of an issue in UK than a couple of decades ago, it is still a major issue. In third world countries, elderly are a rare commodity and greatly valued for their wisdom and experience. In the West, the elderly are resented for taking jobs away from younger people and burdening the health and care system. Perhaps if their kids did a bit more to own the responsibility of looking after their parents in old age (like they do in the Third World) the care system would not be under such a strain. Granny and grandad seem to outlive their usefulness here when they're no longer able to bring up their grandchildren for their parent(s).

 

[Hally]

Now we could have an interesting discussion about the vaccine...who get it first, based on age, profession and how to shield the elderly properly.
A lot of countries debated their strategy and here it has changed quite a few times.

However most of you are just waiting for someone with a different opinion to ridicule, so too bad it's not worth it.

One example.

You said hospitals were busy in 2016 and 2018, suggesting the current situation is in some way similar to that when it is in a whole different stratosphere. You get pulled up on it then just make another random point like 'a German judge says'.

It feels like you scrabble around for anything that fits your narrative and when pulled up on it just switch to something else

You make really questionable statements like 'nursing homes are for people waiting to die' then complain that people are emotional when they respond

I get you think lockdown is harmful and bad and you dont like it but you offer no realistic alternative and ignore that all Western governments agree with us and disagree with you. Perhaps they know more and you're wrong?

 

[MrHullMysterious]

One example.

You said hospitals were busy in 2016 and 2018, suggesting the current situation is in some way similar to that when it is in a whole different stratosphere. You get pulled up on it then just make another random point like 'a German judge says'.

It feels like you scrabble around for anything that fits your narrative and when pulled up on it just switch to something else

You make really questionable statements like 'nursing homes are for people waiting to die' then complain that people are emotional when they respond

I get you think lockdown is harmful and bad and you dont like it but you offer no realistic alternative and ignore that all Western governments agree with us and disagree with you. Perhaps they know more and you're wrong?

Repost of something @stivi posted a week or so ago that completely debunks this

'It's not a bad flu season' - Covid myths debunked with data

FT data journalist John Burn-Murdoch examines the coronavirus stats, and explains why the UK's Covid-19 death rate is likely to rise further

www.ft.com

Edit : this is not a different option, but fact.

 

[FlatErik]

People smarter than me have taken apart every arguement you've put forward. You're the one who resorts to 'fear porn' 'virtue signalling' and calling people emotional

Did they?
So their sources, studies, articles are more truth than the ones with a different view on the matter?

 

[Hally]

Repost of something @stivi posted a week or so ago that completely debunks this

'It's not a bad flu season' - Covid myths debunked with data

FT data journalist John Burn-Murdoch examines the coronavirus stats, and explains why the UK's Covid-19 death rate is likely to rise further

www.ft.com

Edit : this is not a different option, but fact.

Mate it's so much worse its ridiculous, its basically every day is the worst day the NHS has ever had

 

[Hally]

Did they?
So their sources, studies, articles are more truth than the ones with a different view on the matter?

They did. Half the time you disappear and dont debate

 

[FlatErik]

They did. Half the time you disappear and dont debate

I debate quite a lot. Also I dont disappear at all, but when everyone pulls their emotions in to the debate it becomes pointless to keep it up.
I just decide to do some other stuff.
There's a growing support for a different view on all this though.. Visible and invisible in this thread.

 

[Moha]

Every single judgement a judge makes is their own opinion - their opinion on the interpretation of the law.

What relevance is a judicial court decision on the effectiveness of lockdown? It's two entirely seperate matters.

Honestly, you're talking absolute garbage in here, and when you fail to defend your many flawed arguments you resort to "YOU ALL JUST DONT LIKE DIFFERENT OPINIONS".

Exactly.
In Brief: Berlin court rejects restaurant owners’ appeal to overturn lockdown rules.

In Brief: Berlin court rejects restaurant owners’ appeal to overturn lockdown rules

While the plaintiffs argued they were not “drivers of the pandemic,” the judges decided that wasn’t something they could prove.

kcrwberlin.com

 

[spinksy123]

Changing subject slightly. It's been suggested Boris wants a 6 month extension to Coronavirus laws. Which i think have to be reviewed in March? This would have a potential lockdown until September.

I appreciate people are adamant right now lockdown is absolutely essential.

However what's people's opinion on this going on until September? It's only one newspaper column. But I think they've spoken to two Conservative MP's. So It may carry some weight. It mentions a small group of scientists want to remain locked down for rest of year.

 

[kimajy]

Changing subject slightly. It's been suggested Boris wants a 6 month extension to Coronavirus laws. Which i think have to be reviewed in March? This would have a potential lockdown until September.

I appreciate people are adamant right now lockdown is absolutely essential.

However what's people's opinion on this going on until September? It's only one newspaper column. But I think they've spoken to two Conservative MP's. So It may carry some weight. It mentions a small group of scientists want to remain locked down for rest of year.

Probably wants to have the power to do it if need arises,but lockdown in some areas (like mine) is already objectively unsupportable in the peak of a wave based on cumulative and rolling 7-day transmission rates and therefore if he does this it'd better be implemented in effing Tiers.

 

[MrHullMysterious]

Changing subject slightly. It's been suggested Boris wants a 6 month extension to Coronavirus laws. Which i think have to be reviewed in March? This would have a potential lockdown until September.

I appreciate people are adamant right now lockdown is absolutely essential.

However what's people's opinion on this going on until September? It's only one newspaper column. But I think they've spoken to two Conservative MP's. So It may carry some weight. It mentions a small group of scientists want to remain locked down for rest of year.

Think there will be some form of restrictions until Sept, but nothing as extreme as now (think back to last July/Aug).

Also remember they hope to have all adults offered 1st jab by Sept, so might even be more open than last year, but I'd say it's to cover things like mass gatherings and that until then.?‍?

Ps: there are some conservative mps who want no restrictions and pushing for opening up completely asap (isolate the vulnerable chestnut etc) and so hard to know what gov is thinking as a lot of internal tension in Tory party over it.

Pps: economy wouldn't survive anything like a lockdown until July-Sept. Will be easing of restrictions mid march I think (gyms, non-essential retail etc)

 

[Springal]

The coronavirus laws are just all the measures / restrictions - not lockdown specifically. So just extending the ability to impose restrictions beyond March which is expected. But doubt it will be full lockdowns, expect to see what we had last summer & tier based systems again I guess.

 

[spinksy123]

I think most would agree with restrictions until most vulnerable groups are vaccinated. MP's and public generally.

Public support is on the wane though in my opinion. I think mentally people are starting to feel really drained by the whole thing.

Which is why I don't get why the government doesn't come out and say

If ICU capacity reduces to X

If daily death rates reduce to X

If positive test results reduce to X

If the R number reduces to X

Then we as a government can look to doing Y and Z interms of lifting restrictions.

However this does rely on people behaving with the parameters.

Give people something...

Surely those in Government and Sage have an idea of what these numbers need to be? They can estimate going the other way


Instead you have Matt Hancock reported to have said....

We're going to be locked down for a long, long time yet

And schools may not open until Easter.



People reading or hearing that are probably going to say to themselves......."f@ck this, I've had enough"

It's like they have no Tact in what they say. And then people go and ignore the guidance....



Going a bit further. There's a lot of educated people on this thread. Unfortunately that's not necessarily typical of society. So behaviour will be different. Unless the government communicate in a different way. People won't and don't comply.

 

[BenH]

Changing subject slightly. It's been suggested Boris wants a 6 month extension to Coronavirus laws. Which i think have to be reviewed in March? This would have a potential lockdown until September.

I appreciate people are adamant right now lockdown is absolutely essential.

However what's people's opinion on this going on until September? It's only one newspaper column. But I think they've spoken to two Conservative MP's. So It may carry some weight. It mentions a small group of scientists want to remain locked down for rest of year.

Pointless having an opinion on here pal, you get slaughtered if it differs in any way shape or form to the Sage crew!

 

[cunninghamali]

Pointless having an opinion on here pal, you get slaughtered if it differs in any way shape or form to the Sage crew!

There's a difference between differ of opinion and just being insensitive...I normally don't get involved but his recent comments wound me up

 

[MrHullMysterious]

I think most would agree with restrictions until most vulnerable groups are vaccinated. MP's and public generally.

Public support is on the wane though in my opinion. I think mentally people are starting to feel really drained by the whole thing.

Which is why I don't get why the government doesn't come out and say

If ICU capacity reduces to X

If daily death rates reduce to X

If positive test results reduce to X

If the R number reduces to X

Then we as a government can look to doing Y and Z interms of lifting restrictions.

However this does rely on people behaving with the parameters.

Give people something...

Surely those in Government and Sage have an idea of what these numbers need to be? They can estimate going the other way


Instead you have Matt Hancock reported to have said....

We're going to be locked down for a long, long time yet

And schools may not open until Easter.



People reading or hearing that are probably going to say to themselves......."f@ck this, I've had enough"

It's like they have no Tact in what they say. And then people go and ignore the guidance....



Going a bit further. There's a lot of educated people on this thread. Unfortunately that's not necessarily typical of society. So behaviour will be different. Unless the government communicate in a different way. People won't and don't comply.

I think they don't say if xyz as there are too many combinations, but more importantly of you start to talk about releasing things in the future now, some people start to get more complacent from now. (Bit like the vaccination program and how they are having to reinforce the msg to stay at home etc)

So I think they will be vague until it's only a week or so before relaxing something.

There is also the fact they don't really know ?

Suspect will hit targets for mid feb. By end feb / start of March numbers will be a lot lower, vaccination going well leading to lower hospitalization numbers (critical point this) and deaths.

That will lead to rollback of measures, but more cautiously than summer last year; country can't cope with another unlock quick, eat out to help out etc, then lockdown again. Even I will lose my shit!

I also hope to be vaccinated by end July.

Ps: just had someone msg me to meet up in park next sat to have some drinks, but wear running shoes ??‍ - no thanks, plus it's too bloody cold? (also running with a shopping bag of booze?)

 

[Springal]

I think most would agree with restrictions until most vulnerable groups are vaccinated. MP's and public generally.

Public support is on the wane though in my opinion. I think mentally people are starting to feel really drained by the whole thing.

Which is why I don't get why the government doesn't come out and say

If ICU capacity reduces to X

If daily death rates reduce to X

If positive test results reduce to X

If the R number reduces to X

Then we as a government can look to doing Y and Z interms of lifting restrictions.

However this does rely on people behaving with the parameters.

Give people something...

Surely those in Government and Sage have an idea of what these numbers need to be? They can estimate going the other way


Instead you have Matt Hancock reported to have said....

We're going to be locked down for a long, long time yet

And schools may not open until Easter.



People reading or hearing that are probably going to say to themselves......."f@ck this, I've had enough"

It's like they have no Tact in what they say. And then people go and ignore the guidance....



Going a bit further. There's a lot of educated people on this thread. Unfortunately that's not necessarily typical of society. So behaviour will be different. Unless the government communicate in a different way. People won't and don't comply.

Do see where you are coming from for this. Just think it’s a difficult thing to set metrics for. For instance I know my local authority hospitals ICUs were full just after Christmas because we took patients from 2 neighbouring counties / trusts. So should we be punished with lockdowns based on this. I’d be surprised if we get past March without a chance in tact and hopefully we do go back to some kind of tiered system again. Vaccine program and improving weather should help

Pointless having an opinion on here pal, you get slaughtered if it differs in any way shape or form to the Sage crew!

really ? Looks like you’re the one shit stirring to me! Apart from the obvious poster this thread has had plenty of healthy / good debate

 

[FlatErik]

Many pages ago I wrote about the doubts on PCR tests. People without any symptoms tested positive and were counted as cases. Off course I was called out a liar for using Russian propaganda and such..but okay.
Remember...positive PCR tests were the reason a lot of countries tightened the measures again. In The Netherlands it was part of the fear-campaign (I shall use a different word from now on). Now the World Health Organization has published this:

WHO Information Notice for Users 2020/05

Product type: Nucleic acid testing (NAT) technologies that use polymerase chain reaction (PCR) for detection of SARS-CoV-2 Date: 13 January 2021 WHO-identifier: 2020/5, version 2 Target audience: laboratory professionals and...

www.who.int

This says that a positive PCR test = no longer covid now. You will not be counted as a Covid case unless you get a second test to confirm it if you don't have the symptoms. I'm curious to see what the impact is.
Again, I'm talking about The Netherlands...we have no collapsing acute healthcare at the moment, not even half the capacity we needed in lockdown 1 is used, but the government sees "cases" rising and are scaring us with the British variant.

 

[MrHullMysterious]

Pointless having an opinion on here pal, you get slaughtered if it differs in any way shape or form to the Sage crew!

Oh come on?, we've had different viewpoints on vaccines and lockdown to some extent, but I don't think you're of the opinion we should bin it off and throw the "old" under the bus.

If an opinion has data, self consistent logic or some other scientific research to show it has a possible positive outcome, happy to discuss it. But some opinions are "I'm sick of this shit, want it over for me now, f*** everyone who will suffer". (Not saying that is you)

Completely get that feeling myself - besides xmas day I've not seen anyone since Sept & live on my tod?.

But if the outcome for society is worse, we have to keep going with the least worse option. If the vaccines don't work, then it will be the older under the bus I'm afraid!

Doesn't help the UK is always too late on acting and leaves us with poorer more painful least bad options.

Feel free to ridicule any of our opinions btw?

- the Sage & Onion crew ?