Why engage? He's either too stupid to understand (despite having had it pointed out numerous times) that lockdowns and masks are there to try to prevent the overwhelming of a country's health service by holding back the tide or he's just trolling, presumably the latter and no-one's that thick surely?
☣ Coronavirus ☣
- Thread starter ibiza77
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Hally
Well-Known Member
I'm easily lured ?
FlatErik
Well-Known Member
He basically says both in Dutch Media.
He's not 'one medic' btw. He is the head responsible for multiple London hospitals.
He basically said the following things:
- it's not that more contagious
- triage rumours about having to decide who gets a bed in the UK were untrue
- critcon level four was never in place
There's is another professor virologist Fouchier from the Rotterdam Erasmus University hospital saying there is no evidence at all that the British variant is more contagious, however Dutch politicians and dutch media continue to say so...(even though they have weakened the argument by saying it is not 70% more contagious like they thought initially, but now it is supposed to be 30% more contagious).
Both Levi and Fouchier, well educated and extremely well informed people are saying the same. It's more likely the peak in the UK was caused by Xmas. They add that variants of a virus are generally good news, they get more contagious but less severe so if the British variant takes over the regular variant...less people would end up in the hospital instead of more people.
That's why I despise the 'variant scare tactics' as a way of enforcing and extending lockdowns, curfews, etc.
It's based on thin ice...calculations that assume the worst and turned out to be totally wrong earlier, for The Netherlands at least. Not one predictions from out government turned out to be realistic.
However...do I doubt you and your co-workers are having a hard time Hally? Not at all.
It sounds like you feel I’m asking a silly question? How come? I was wondering what your observations are based on.
So let’s try this again because it seems like we both appreciate a critical conversation:
What do you consider to be a good indicator of “people abiding the rules”?
FlatErik
Well-Known Member
Good, because I actually do appreciate a critical conversation indeed. But to be fair, most criticism or other views then "follow the rules and all will be good" gets thrown aside and framed as 'stupid and covid denier, just wait until it's your grandma on the IC unit etc" That gets boring easily and doesn't create a healthy space to seriously and critically look at all sides of this story.
Anyway...my view on people abiding the rules is based the general population.
Like I said, there will always be excesses, people breaking the rules, even with new measures such as a curfew...
But with the current set of rules in The Netherlands I see the general population is abiding the rules. I see facemasks in supermarkets and public transport. All shops, bars, restaurant stay closed (unlike the disobedience in Italy by example) and my workplace is totally empty. I do an evening walk pretty much every night and I don't see big groups coming together. Most people I know and speak to are following the rules, they don't visit the vulnerable etc.
So my indicators are personal experience, comparing that to the people I speak too and what I see in public....that creates my view that MOST people are abiding the rules. However our government seems to use this strange narrative that they will have to enforce new rules and stricter rules because we are not doing enough.
CasaNegron
Well-Known Member
One thing I can say is that you definitely have not run away... especially given the regular beatings you get on this forum! Cheers to you sir!
Hally
Well-Known Member
He is one medic, albeit a senior one
Hospitals definitely are very bad, not a discussion point. The fact that people still get a bed means it hasnt failed. Although stopping a huge amount of cancer and other treatment could be considered a failure
The vast majority of virologists and medics disagree. The problems in London and the South East were before Christmas
Not one prediction? Sounds unlikely
Like I said , easily lured. Time to come out the toilet and get back to work!
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Perhaps that is the source of our disagreement. One of my indicators is “work from home when possible”.
Data shows that during the 1st wave people worked from home when possible resulting in 42,86% - 48,57% less movements to the workplace compared to a baseline in February. When strong restrictions were introduced in October (including closing bars/restaurants) the advice was again to restrict movement and to work from home. This time the advice was followed a lot less often according to the same data. From October 12 onwards the biggest drops in less movement to work correspond to the holidays (autumn break/Christmas). The lowest reduction in that period is -17,71%. That is a lot less then the 48,57 in the previous wave.
If you look into more local reporting the numbers are even less.
Certainly there are factors to consider like seasonality which may skew this data a little. But that shouldn’t result in double digit differences.
How do these numbers make you feel? What do they signal to you?
Source of data: Google Mobility Reports.
Accessed through this website: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-mobility-trends
Moha
Well-Known Member
You are turning an opening protest for few minutes with No food served, to a mass protest.
The purpose was to get some needed help from government.
The swiss gastro distanced itself.
GastroSuisse
@GastroSuisseCH
Nous nous distançons de l’initiative #WirMachenAuf (#RestonsOuverts) et soulignons ne rien à voir avec celle-ci. Pour nous il est clair que l’on doit se tenir aux #mesures ordonnées par la Confédération et les cantons. #CoronaInfoCH https://gastrosuisse.ch/fr/federation/medias/communiques-de-presse/communiques-de-presse-2021/#c11681
FlatErik
Well-Known Member
You're using one example from Switzerland.You are turning an opening protest for few minutes with No food served, to a mass protest.
The purpose was to get some needed help from government.
The swiss gastro distanced itself.
GastroSuisse
@GastroSuisseCH
Nous nous distançons de l’initiative #WirMachenAuf (#RestonsOuverts) et soulignons ne rien à voir avec celle-ci. Pour nous il est clair que l’on doit se tenir aux #mesures ordonnées par la Confédération et les cantons. #CoronaInfoCH https://gastrosuisse.ch/fr/federation/medias/communiques-de-presse/communiques-de-presse-2021/#c11681
In Italy it was and still is a mass protest. Restaurants opened and people went out to eat. It was unstoppable. You can find the videos of people dining and singing. Police showed up and they got yelled away by the crowd.
I called it mass disobedience....and that's what it is.
FlatErik
Well-Known Member
I must agree with you that the work from home "advise" is a really troublesome measure and I see the numbers.
Perhaps if everyone had really worked from home and the government truly enforced that measure.....restaurants would not have to close now or the youth was not be blamed and punished even more with a curfew.
FlatErik
Well-Known Member
Posting these interviews of his personnel on his socials says nothing about his quotes in Dutch media imho. He's their boss, so off course he will praise them for the hard work they deliver. That was never in question.
andrewthemod_1978
Well-Known Member
no surprise
Moha
Well-Known Member
No source still!
It is NOT a mass protest. SOME restaurants don't mean mass protest.
Some restaurant owners in Rome have defied coronavirus restrictions, keeping their doors open for customers at dinnertime.
‘This is civil disobedience’: Rome restaurants defy COVID-19 closures
One restauranteur said recent losses were making it impossible to provide for his children, adding that government financial aid wasn't enough.
www.euronews.com
Not bothering anymore. IGNORE it is.
Sassette
Active Member
but if you read his own tweets he is saying “journalist opinion on the new variant being less virilent not his own”
FlatErik
Well-Known Member
You asked for sources on mass civil disobedience, I never said the word protest. I pointed you in the right direction with hashtags.No source still!
It is NOT a mass protest. SOME restaurants don't mean mass protest.
Some restaurant owners in Rome have defied coronavirus restrictions, keeping their doors open for customers at dinnertime.
‘This is civil disobedience’: Rome restaurants defy COVID-19 closures
One restauranteur said recent losses were making it impossible to provide for his children, adding that government financial aid wasn't enough.
Not bothering anymore. IGNORE it is.
Italian news sources spoke about 70K restaurants. Besides the restaurants, gyms also reopened. To me, that's mass civil disobedience.
Not just some restaurants in Rome.
4tothefloor
Active Member
And it didn’t take long to prove the point. @Moha , @Hally and @Sassette immediately discrediting evidence provided to prove a preconceived view that lockdowns and interventions should not happen. The evidence provided is not baseless, but is simply a small minority of contrary examples or views that have been taken out of context.
It’s just blatantly unhelpful to post this content and leads to readers having to undertake their own checks and balances to identify what is and isn’t accurate. It leads to a fundamental credibility issue.
It’s just blatantly unhelpful to post this content and leads to readers having to undertake their own checks and balances to identify what is and isn’t accurate. It leads to a fundamental credibility issue.
Hally
Well-Known Member
Dont let the facts get in the way ?
JayDR8
Active Member
it's incredible that people go around looking for articles or people that agree with them. It's just confirmation bias ? . Of course they don't have an example of a country that hasn't locked down and has handled it well. Every country that has handled well has used similar tactics and certainly hasn't allowed it to rise exponentially.
The kicking the can down the road argument is hilarious, if cases rise after a lockdown do they somehow think that if we weren't locked down they wouldn't have risen? Do they not understand that if cases rose exponentially then many more people that didn't have covid would die due to the fact that the healthcare system would not be able to cope and other treatments would be sacrificed too. When hospital beds are full the rate of death suddenly jumps higher than whatever figure they say isn't substantial, as everyone needing a ventilator dies, anyone needing oxygen doesn't get it and therefore deteriorates and is then much more likely to die too.
When they say vulnerable people should shield do they not understand that vulnerable people don't all live by themselves with no contact from anyone that isn't vulnerable?
'HEY, I KNOW 99.9% OF EXPERTS DON'T AGREE WITH ME BUT I'VE FOUND SOMEONE WHO IS AN EXPERT THAT DOES'. Usually an expert in a completely different area. Take this as an example of the idiots that people were quoting and pushing.
All I know is that if 99 experts agree and 1 doesn't, you can bet your life which side is correct. I can only imagine how I'd laugh if someone had read a couple of articles on the internet and was trying to tell me that I was getting everything about my profession wrong ?.
The kicking the can down the road argument is hilarious, if cases rise after a lockdown do they somehow think that if we weren't locked down they wouldn't have risen? Do they not understand that if cases rose exponentially then many more people that didn't have covid would die due to the fact that the healthcare system would not be able to cope and other treatments would be sacrificed too. When hospital beds are full the rate of death suddenly jumps higher than whatever figure they say isn't substantial, as everyone needing a ventilator dies, anyone needing oxygen doesn't get it and therefore deteriorates and is then much more likely to die too.
When they say vulnerable people should shield do they not understand that vulnerable people don't all live by themselves with no contact from anyone that isn't vulnerable?
'HEY, I KNOW 99.9% OF EXPERTS DON'T AGREE WITH ME BUT I'VE FOUND SOMEONE WHO IS AN EXPERT THAT DOES'. Usually an expert in a completely different area. Take this as an example of the idiots that people were quoting and pushing.
All I know is that if 99 experts agree and 1 doesn't, you can bet your life which side is correct. I can only imagine how I'd laugh if someone had read a couple of articles on the internet and was trying to tell me that I was getting everything about my profession wrong ?.
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