☣ Coronavirus ☣

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I think an analogy is someone with gangrene in their leg.

Cutting off the leg has consequences, no longer gonna be a track and field athlete, impact on life etc.

But if isn't done it is very likely the patient will die, as no alternatives currently.

It's a shit show and a wakeup call for the world.
 
ElrowLovers said:
Yeah I get it. It's an emotional topic and I think even most politicians are acting upon those emotions.
But yeah I get it, most people disagree. If you look at countries, the only country in the whole world that agrees seems to be Sweden.
I fully understand the emotions. I get that my first few replies on the matter would make me seem cold or heartless, so that's another reason I came back to the topic cause I did not want to create that image of me, that's not who I am.
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Sweden is a little unique (in Europe), it only really has one large metropolitan area, the rest is a lower population density. So their approach might be viable. For most other countries not so much. Esp with an R value of 3+ without measures.?‍♂️
 
MrHullMysterious said:
Sweden is a little unique, it only really has one large metropolitan area, the rest is a lower population density. So their approach might be viable. For most other countries not so much. Esp with an R value of 3+ without measures.?‍♂️
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Yeah that could be the reason.
Netherlands now has a R value below 1 (I believe it was 0,3) and we're not even in full lockdown.
People are hoping the schools and restaurants will re-open after April 28th.
 
Kent Kid said:
There are over 228,000 recorded recoveries worldwide (the number will be much higher)

This type of info isn’t reported enough
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True!
Society has become too focussed on the "daily death count".
And those numbers aren't right either.
Because on the one hand: there are more people dying outside of hospitals that are not counted.
On the other hand: there is no good separation of the amount of people who are dying WITH the virus or FROM the virus.
 
What I find utterly baffling about the current talk in the UK about the need to test more, but there’s no talk at all about contact tracing alongside testing. Testing on its own is sensible but it has very limited benefit without a huge network of public health tracers. Each positive case needs to have their movements forensically traced. Otherwise all that will be known is that they’re positive, which they will probably know anyway.

Sadly journalists and media commentators don’t seem to know the right questions to ask the politicians. It’s not just testing that will solve this.
 
SeoulSaint said:
What I find utterly baffling about the current talk in the UK about the need to test more, but there’s no talk at all about contact tracing alongside testing. Testing on its own is sensible but it has very limited benefit without a huge network of public health tracers. Each positive case needs to have their movements forensically traced. Otherwise all that will be known is that they’re positive, which they will probably know anyway.

Sadly journalists and media commentators don’t seem to know the right questions to ask the politicians. It’s not just testing that will solve this.
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From what I understand they want to do community testing and tracing to see what the actual picture is out there. But testing capacity limits this at min (as well as lack of a quick at home antibody test. There is an accurate antibody test but blood samples to lab etc)

I remember from a select committee when questioning the test capacity etc, the government body said was going for a few larger test centres than lots of little ones due to logistics of organising it, shipping samples etc. The chair was quite surprised by that and did grill them on that approach.

Looks like done a u-turn on that in last few days as taking too long to get the new large centres up and running.
 
MrHullMysterious said:
From what I understand they want to do community testing and tracing to see what the actual picture is out there. But testing capacity limits this at min (as well as lack of a quick at home antibody test. There is an accurate antibody test but blood samples to lab etc)

I remember from a select committee when questioning the test capacity etc, the government body said was going for a few larger test centres than lots of little ones due to logistics of organising it, shipping samples etc. The chair was quite surprised by that and did grill them on that approach.

Looks like done a u-turn on that in last few days as taking too long to get the new large centres up and running.
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The problem lies mainly in the organisation of the NHS having no real regional offices or capacity anymore outside of London, so all the testing has to be coordinated centrally, although this is slightly changing. The much maligned back office managers that everyone dislikes so much but actually coordinate these testing programmes and make them happen don’t really exist outside of London. It’s a crazy situation that all the organisation for this pandemic is via command and control from a couple of offices in London.
 
ElrowLovers said:
The thing is...as soon as someone (me in this case) starts a discussion if the global approach could have been different...these are the answers I get.
I'm not saying the people you know should get no help. I'm not saying all elderly people should die. I'm not saying we should have done nothing at all.

But the discussion that is starting to grow in the Netherlands now (I can't post the articles here cause they're all dutch)...and will start soon all over the world..is:
Was this the right approach or will more healthy young people eventually die from the approach rather than from the disease on the long term? There are many experts (health, economy, philosophy, society) who are debating these lockdowns without a solid plan or perspective.

I know I said I was done with this topic, but since people keep quoting me and coming with the same kinda responses...I repeat: I am not saying we should let your elderly or risk group family die. I'm saying there should be room for a critical view on this approach.
Not to let me go to Ibiza in June or have a festival this summer.....but to make sure we and the generation that comes after us still has a decent life too. Cause if this goes on too long, we're ruining that.
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Im not going to insult you, it’s just plane to see you don’t have the maturity and sense to see your talking a pile of shite.

Here’s some advice and we will leave it at that, follow your country’s guidelines to the letter of the law, respect what is being asked of us for the greater good and you and your generation will have plenty time to party, have a decent life and watch cricket.
 
Interesting they are now saying it can survive in the air for 3 hours and not just people coughing but infected people with no symptoms just breathing out ?.

Takes as little 20 virus particles to infect someone. I guess in hospital setting going to get a lot more than that and so the viral load is going to climb a lot more steeply in someone. (Thus sadly lot of health professionals dying from it)
 
MrHullMysterious said:
Interesting they are now saying it can survive in the air for 3 hours and not just people coughing but infected people with no symptoms just breathing out ?.

Takes as little 20 virus particles to infect someone. I guess in hospital setting going to get a lot more than that and so the viral load is going to climb a lot more steeply in someone. (Thus sadly lot of health professionals dying from it)
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Yeh wondered that myself with no medical understanding whether you can get a heavier dose of it, if exposed to more of it. Makes logical sense but who knows.
 
ElrowLovers said:
Yeah I get it. It's an emotional topic and I think even most politicians are acting upon those emotions.
But yeah I get it, most people disagree. If you look at countries, the only country in the whole world that agrees seems to be Sweden.
I fully understand the emotions. I get that my first few replies on the matter would make me seem cold or heartless, so that's another reason I came back to the topic cause I did not want to create that image of me, that's not who I am.
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You're not entirely alone here -- I'm also concerned by how hard it is to have any kind of discussion or debate on the topic.

Giving up personal rights and freedoms may truly be the only way we can combat the spread right now. However, if fear has gotten us so quickly to a place where people can't talk about those decisions, their scientific validity, etc., without being shamed, bullied, or worse, that's showing some dangerous things about where our society is that we need to pay attention to as well.
 
CraigyB said:
Yeh wondered that myself with no medical understanding whether you can get a heavier dose of it, if exposed to more of it. Makes logical sense but who knows.
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From what I've heard from experts, that is the case.
Eg:
If you get 1-20 particles and grows exponentially, then 5 days till symptoms.

If you have 1,000+ then you are going to have a massive viral load very quickly and probs overwhelm your body and have a severe immune response ?
 
I have absolutely no knowledge on the subject (so shut up then....) but I would have thought that our body copes with thousands of pieces of shit that gets thrown at it every day, germs, viruses, dirt, dust, pollution etc; so I would have thought that the majority of us would cope with a tiny amount of CV just like we do all the other stuff, so it must need a significant amount to actually make us ill (just like, say, bacteria in a glass of off-milk)?

Again I underline I haven't a clue - I'm just assuming that's how it works?
 
CraigyB said:
Yeh wondered that myself with no medical understanding whether you can get a heavier dose of it, if exposed to more of it. Makes logical sense but who knows.
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Yes I heard you get mild symptoms if not exposed to it so much, if you touch somewhere that has the virus on be more mild than if you are with someone who has the virus eg they sneezed by you
 
2H76 said:
I have absolutely no knowledge on the subject (so shut up then....) but I would have thought that our body copes with thousands of pieces of shit that gets thrown at it every day, germs, viruses, dirt, dust, pollution etc; so I would have thought that the majority of us would cope with a tiny amount of CV just like we do all the other stuff, so it must need a significant amount to actually make us ill (just like, say, bacteria in a glass of off-milk)?

Again I underline I haven't a clue - I'm just assuming that's how it works?
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Yup exactly. A few you probs get away with. It's all to do with probability and how many get established in your throat/lungs etc.

I did read a paper that the virus has some sort of mechanism to suppress immune response so it can defeat the normal 'house keeper' immune system.

Thus when builds up to a large amount and lots of cell death it triggers the 'riot police' immune response (see cytokine storm) which in some people leads to the severe complications. Also why hydroxychloroquine might be helpful in earlier stages as it is an immune suppressant oddly enough.

If read up on how cells work and viruses hijack them, it's really interesting. All the little bio machines in every cell! (Wikipedia is a decent source)

Edit: first link found on immune avoidance of covid etc
www.karger.com

Innate Immune Evasion by Human Respiratory RNA Viruses

Abstract. The impact of respiratory virus infections on the health of children and adults can be very significant. Yet, in contrast to most other childhood infections as well as other viral and bacterial diseases, prophylactic vaccines or effective antiviral treatments against viral respiratory...
www.karger.com www.karger.com
 
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MrHullMysterious said:
From what I've heard from experts, that is the case.
Eg:
If you get 1-20 particles and grows exponentially, then 5 days till symptoms.

If you have 1,000+ then you are going to have a massive viral load very quickly and probs overwhelm your body and have a severe immune response ?
Click to expand...
Explains why so many health workers with seemingly no underlying health conditions are being so badly affected.
 
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