A good (sustainable) life

The Sun God said:
I'd guess it means the people who go to Corsica, Sardinia, Menorca, Tossa de Mar (*these are not without their own issues either though)
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Don't know about Sardinia, but Corsica and Menorca are cheaper than Ibiza. That "quality tourism" you are dreaming about would bring less money per tourist, not more. Meaning Ibiza would need even more such tourists to generate the same tourism revenue (and earnings for locals) it gets today. Didn't you complain about the infrastructure being stressed by tourists?

Ibiza tourism is quality tourism already, with people paying a sizable premium to be on Ibiza and not elsewhere. If you think you can halve tourist numbers and make the remaining half pay a double price for everything - good luck with that 🤣

The Sun God said:
and - without pretending to have any expertise - perhaps more support for the arts, marine biology, university research, tech, science, green/renewables, entrepreneurs,
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About every other place on Earth wants that too, I don't see how Ibiza could compete here. The infrastructure is seriously lacking, the bureaucracy is awful. And if "tech" comes despite all that, tech workers will drive the property prices so up that ibicencos will reminisce of good old tourism days with affordable property.

The only competitive advantage Ibiza has over other similar islands is its party culture (and associated reputation of being THE place to be). That translates into tourism. I understand many locals only work for half a year - a luxury unimaginable in most places.

local manufacturing, locally sourced food & textiles?
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Sounds like Ibiza of the 1930s, charming but very, very poor. The whole point of developing tourism is that it brings a lot more money than agriculture or local manufacturing.
 
tclubber said:
Don't know about Sardinia, but Corsica and Menorca are cheaper than Ibiza. That "quality tourism" you are dreaming about would bring less money per tourist, not more. Meaning Ibiza would need even more such tourists to generate the same tourism revenue (and earnings for locals) it gets today. Didn't you complain about the infrastructure being stressed by tourists?

Ibiza tourism is quality tourism already, with people paying a sizable premium to be on Ibiza and not elsewhere. If you think you can halve tourist numbers and make the remaining half pay a double price for everything - good luck with that 🤣


About every other place on Earth wants that too, I don't see how Ibiza could compete here. The infrastructure is seriously lacking, the bureaucracy is awful. And if "tech" comes despite all that, tech workers will drive the property prices so up that ibicencos will reminisce of good old tourism days with affordable property.

The only competitive advantage Ibiza has over other similar islands is its party culture (and associated reputation of being THE place to be). That translates into tourism. I understand many locals only work for half a year - a luxury unimaginable in most places.


Sounds like Ibiza of the 1930s, charming but very, very poor. The whole point of developing tourism is that it brings a lot more money than agriculture or local manufacturing.
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You still don't get it. It's not just about crude balance sheets. People want something else, a different approach. It might require some pain but that's the price to pay. And what people in this country cannot stand is outsiders telling them what's good for them. Spain is not your colony believe it or not...
 
tclubber said:
Don't know about Sardinia, but Corsica and Menorca are cheaper than Ibiza. That "quality tourism" you are dreaming about would bring less money per tourist, not more. Meaning Ibiza would need even more such tourists to generate the same tourism revenue (and earnings for locals) it gets today. Didn't you complain about the infrastructure being stressed by tourists?

Ibiza tourism is quality tourism already, with people paying a sizable premium to be on Ibiza and not elsewhere. If you think you can halve tourist numbers and make the remaining half pay a double price for everything - good luck with that 🤣


About every other place on Earth wants that too, I don't see how Ibiza could compete here. The infrastructure is seriously lacking, the bureaucracy is awful. And if "tech" comes despite all that, tech workers will drive the property prices so up that ibicencos will reminisce of good old tourism days with affordable property.

The only competitive advantage Ibiza has over other similar islands is its party culture (and associated reputation of being THE place to be). That translates into tourism. I understand many locals only work for half a year - a luxury unimaginable in most places.


Sounds like Ibiza of the 1930s, charming but very, very poor. The whole point of developing tourism is that it brings a lot more money than agriculture or local manufacturing.
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Oooft.

Tell me you don’t live in Ibiza without telling me you don’t live in Ibiza…
 
The Sun God said:
You still don't get it. It's not just about crude balance sheets. People want something else, a different approach. It might require some pain but that's the price to pay. And what people in this country cannot stand is outsiders telling them what's good for them. Spain is not your colony believe it or not...
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No one is telling the Spanish what is good for them, we are just discussing the merits of their demands. No different to outsiders discussing Donald Trump, Brexit, the Israeli-Gaza war, human rights abroad and lots of other themes where we aren't decision makers (and often not even stakeholders).

Especially priceless is to read foreigners who settled in Ibiza/Canaries or are regular visitors there complaining about other foreigners settling in or traveling to the same place 🤣

The Spanish are of course free to limit the freedom of movement, but they would have to leave the EU for that.
 
tclubber said:
No one is telling the Spanish what is good for them, we are just discussing the merits of their demands. No different to outsiders discussing Donald Trump, Brexit, the Israeli-Gaza war, human rights abroad and lots of other themes where we aren't decision makers (and often not even stakeholders).
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To me it reeks of someone who thinks Spain just exists to service their needs. In the past, in the immediate post-dictatorship years, Spain was pretty humble and indulged all the castanet stereotypes, at a time when the young democracy was still finding its feet in the world. But now the country is sick of being treated like everyone's bitch and just deserves a bit of respect.
 
The Sun God said:
But now the country is sick of being treated like everyone's bitch and just deserves a bit of respect.
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I am sorry, but that's how the EU works. If you want to sell your agriculture products in Germany without customs and duties, you have to allow Germans to travel to your country and to settle there if they wish so. Same with other EU countries. Sure, the inability to control immigration is a drawback, but you cannot both keep the cake and eat it. EU citizens have exactly the same right to travel to Spanish regions and to settle there as Spanish people do.

If the locals don't like it, they are free to leave the EU, then they would decide themselves who can and cannot come. Our British friends did it recently, I understand every Brit is very happy with Brexit now!

Not sure why you think there is a lack of respect though. When an American comes to Germany to pick up the German car he purchased, then rides it on our autobahns, then ships the newly purchased car home and goes back to the States, I don't feel he is treating my country as a bitch. I am glad he contributes money to the German economy and enjoys being here. He doesn't have to "show respect" to my country, it's enough for him to follow laws and not depend on public money. Shouldn't be much different with tourists in Spain.
 
tclubber said:
I am sorry, but that's how the EU works. If you want to sell your agriculture products in Germany without customs and duties, you have to allow Germans to travel to your country and to settle there if they wish so. Same with other EU countries. Sure, the inability to control immigration is a drawback, but you cannot both keep the cake and eat it. EU citizens have exactly the same right to travel to Spanish regions and to settle there as Spanish people do.

If the locals don't like it, they are free to leave the EU, then they would decide themselves who can and cannot come. Our British friends did it recently, I understand every Brit is very happy with Brexit now!

Not sure why you think there is a lack of respect though. When an American comes to Germany to pick up the German car he purchased, then rides it on our autobahns, then ships the newly purchased car home and goes back to the States, I don't feel he is treating my country as a bitch. I am glad he contributes money to the German economy and enjoys being here. He doesn't have to "show respect" to my country, it's enough for him to follow laws and not depend on public money. Shouldn't be much different with tourists in Spain.
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I think your response (again) proves my point
 
Well I guess "demanding respect" for a country is a red cloth for me.

Every time politics was based on demanding respect, the end result was war and bloodshed. This includes my own country at one time.

It's OK to want money above all. It's also OK to sacrifice money for other aspects of life. But nothing good ever comes from demanding respect.
 
BareBen91 said:
Sorry but I am yet to find a single person here who is happy about Brexit. It's actually a real achievement by our government that they have managed to piss off both sides of the leave/remain camps
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You can argue that its because they havent been brave, organised or competent enough to change anything though. Its like we decided to leave the club but then keep copying what the club is doing which doesnt work for anyone.

Before the EU countries would compete with each other in taxes, tarrifs, industry grants etc to try and outdo the competition and grow the economy. Now we seem to just have the same rules as the EU but with added red tape on top.
 
The Sun God said:
"Ahh, Eivissa - the island of luxury and glamour" (picture shows poverty around Sant Jordi)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1787734597498736953
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Wow, a very interesting read, thanks!

According to the article, this is not local poverty, but poor mostly foreign seasonal workers who came to make a little money (I hope, legally and with a work permit). Outsiders, as you call them.

No one needs to feel bad for them - they are probably better off this way. The less money they spend on housing, the more money they can send to their families back home. Kudos to the landowner for allowing them to camp there, hopefully he will not get in trouble with the authorities for letting people live where they aren't supposed to live.

Are campsites actually licensed/regulated, or is every landowner permitted to allow camping on his land?
 
tclubber said:
Wow, a very interesting read, thanks!

According to the article, this is not local poverty, but poor mostly foreign seasonal workers who came to make a little money (I hope, legally and with a work permit). Outsiders, as you call them.

No one needs to feel bad for them - they are probably better off this way. The less money they spend on housing, the more money they can send to their families back home. Kudos to the landowner for allowing them to camp there, hopefully he will not get in trouble with the authorities for letting people live where they aren't supposed to live.

Are campsites actually licensed/regulated, or is every landowner permitted to allow camping on his land?
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there's this thing called basic human dignity which should be afforded to all - esp on a wealthy island
 
The Sun God said:
there's this thing called basic human dignity which should be afforded to all - esp on a wealthy island
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There is nothing you can do if people voluntarily arrive on the island without an intention or means to live with "basic human dignity" as you define it. What are you going to do, give everyone arriving on the island a free apartment? Or demand to prove a 4-figure minimum income from all arrivals? Or invade their home countries and forcibly install better governments that would actually care about these people back at home?

The only thing you can do here is to deport these people, which is possible in case of non-EU citizens, but somehow I doubt you'll like this idea.

Just imagine yourself in place of these people. Imagine going to a magic island where you could earn 5x-10x more money than you earn at home, but you would have to live in a shabby tent because you couldn't afford to rent a decent place there. Would you go or not? And if you went, would you be grateful for an opportunity to earn so much money for your family, or would you rather moan about your living standard still being way lower than that of island residents and tourists? Just view the situation through the eyes of these people - and you will no longer feel so bad for them.
 
tclubber said:
? Or demand to prove a 4-figure minimum income from all arrivals?
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Legally it's already the case.
Balearic laws says that if you want to legally move there, you have to prove you have enough money to pay one year of health insurance, etc... I believe it's around 9K€...
 
jimmiz said:
Legally it's already the case.
Balearic laws says that if you want to legally move there, you have to prove you have enough money to pay one year of health insurance, etc... I believe it's around 9K€...
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I think it's a lot more than 9k now...
 
jimmiz said:
Legally it's already the case.
Balearic laws says that if you want to legally move there, you have to prove you have enough money to pay one year of health insurance, etc... I believe it's around 9K€...
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Wow, does the Spanish law allow that? 😲 Because it means Spanish regions can prohibit poor Spanish people from moving in. It has to apply to Spanish people as well because discrimination of EU citizens is prohibited...

I remember an M&T moving to ibiza episode talking about a proof of funds etc., but I assumed it was because British were no longer being treated as EU citizens.
 
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