Veils on women

[thelak]

Think it is going OTT to describe wearing a veil as offensive. People in Britain seem to find it a little threatening and uncomfortable.

Think it is ridiculous to compare wearing a veil to female cirumcision which is an irreversable (i assume) and painful procedure compared to the daily choice to wear a veil.

Also think it is irrelevant to compare wearing a veil in the UK to covering up when abroad as for a start the UK is more culturally mixed and tolerant so that it is less of an issue. Also I dont think its hard to imagine that more offense will be caused in a culture based on modesty by a woman wearing a short skirt than in the UK by someone covering up

If im being honest I would have to sit on the fence. Can handle headscarves fine but find it uncomfortable when I see women in full head to toe burqa's with little eye slits. You cant interact in a situation like that and while it reflects the rich cultural tapestry of the Uk also does mean that the positives of multiculturalism dont really apply in this scenario.

My understanding (which im not sure is complete) is that the head to toe burqa's are more common in Suadi Arabia which has a far more rigid view on the role of women than other muslim states such as Pakistan and Indonesia and that the Saudi view of Islam has become more prevalent in recent yrs and hence partially contributing to the increased visibility and debate around veils

 

[Moha]

Opting out of femininity should not be seen as an option in Britain. It goes against the grain and is not what my ancestors fought for.
.

How do you know that muslim women are opting out of feminity?
Sex has never been big since the introduction of satellite tv in muslim/arab countries. Just have a look at the satellite dishes on the roofs.

 

[MARKB]

No item of clothing is a "must", but some are perscribed by religion. Amish men wear those funny hats, for example. There's varying degrees of adherence and interpretation in all religions... for some Muslim women, those veils are necessary.

Also, I think religion and culture are different things... it's very much a part of British culture to go get pissed on a Friday night, but if you're a conservative Baptist Brit then drinking is off limits... which one takes precedence? Religion, of course... because that's how people are.

(I should note that I agreed with some of your other points)

I agree that Culture and Religion are different things. But I don't agree that Religion must take precedence in every circumstance. The Veil being an issue.

Britain is a very tolerant nation. Which is why many foreigners choose UK as their home.

But that tolerance is currently tested by the intolerance and oversensitivity of others.

It is time that those who truly are interested in a tolerant, integrated and multicultural UK stand firm against this PC childishness and understand that compromise is the only way forward.

If individuals prescibe to certain religious choices which conflict with cultural norms, they cannot expect to benefit from every aspect of that society. Such as being a teacher of children?

And if we as individuals are uncomfortable dealing with veiled strangers, then the veiled strangers should not be outraged when they are not met with understanding and warmth everytime.

 

[Morbyd]

Opting out of femininity should not be seen as an option in Britain. It goes against the grain and is not what my ancestors fought for.

So... is opting out of masculinity against what your ancestors fought for as well? So much for men going clubbing in drag!

 

[Padster]

One thing a few of you seem to have misunderstood is that it's a religious thing. It's not. Nowhere in the Koran or any Islamic doctrines does it say that a woman must wear a veil or even a headscarf. All Muslims are required to cover the top of their heads as a mark of respect to Allah, but many westernised Islamic men forego this. It's a cultural thing. Women from Islamic cultures are required to display modesty at all times and not show an 'indecent' amount of flesh. It's a question of to what degree that modesty is taken and that is usually dictated by the husband or (in the case of single Muslim women) the male members of the family. Most Islamic women who wear the full veil either are subject to an arranged marriage (this is then removed and stays off once she is wed) or are part of a community that whilst living in Western Europe still practice, as far as possible, Shariah (or hardline Islamic) law.

Peronally I find it an archaic way of thinking. It is divisive and in some cases downright immoral by Western standards.
On a slightly different tack, I also believe that if Western women started wearing similar garbs WITHOUT converting to Islam there would be a lot of ill-feeling from Muslim people aswell.

Anyway, I'm off to walk down the high street dressed as a ninja

 

[Moha]

If individuals prescibe to certain religious choices which conflict with cultural norms, they cannot expect to benefit from every aspect of that society. Such as being a teacher of children?

And if we as individuals are uncomfortable dealing with veiled strangers, then the veiled strangers should not be outraged when they are not met with understanding and warmth everytime.

It's the responsability of the individual with ostentious religious signs if he/she is singled out

 

[MARKB]

Well said. Ninja Dude.

I don't think we should ban veils, but it would be great if the wearers would regulate when they wore them in certain circumstances as a step towards harmony.

I'm signing off from this one as I'm starting to read like an outraged politician and it's friday and it's spoiling my vibe. And i'm probably spoiling yours.

Have a good weekend everyone.

 

[Morbyd]

Nothing in the Bible says you have to dress in suspenders and hats and forego modern conveniences, but the Amish do it (I'm loving their example today ). Also, men generally take the decisions in the family in fundamentalist Baptist families..

You can't characterize these types of things as solely Eastern, Islamic, or even foreign to our "culture" (both of these sects are American, of course, but our culture is often said to be based on Anglo-Saxon values)

It is a matter of interpretation... and people of all religions interpret some of the teachings differently. The modesty tenet of Islam is interpreted diffrerently by various families.

 

[Moha]

Have a good week end MARKB. I am off too these subjects are too sensitive

 

[lynch]

this country likes rules for englush people and rules for religions.

Schools seem to be strict on dress codes yet allow viels etc. I think this is wrong, especially if it is a Cathloc school, they should no bend the rules

think common sence should be used, wear what you like but if you are attending a meeting take it off.

or dont moan you feel seperate to the rest of the country when you are dressed different, what do you expect

 

[lynch]

does Rasta not allow rastas to smoke ganga, yet you cant have people smoking everywhere cos it is not legal

once again I'm not sure how this fits into wearing a viel but paradoxially I'm sure it does

 

[utagaura]

I honestly can't beleive some of the comments on here

Whats archaic... is the view that everyone has to dress exactly a we want them to in our little world....

I know some women who wear a veil and they're proud of it... and don't think its archaic nor is it derogatory

Of course people should be able to wear what they want.

We can't put judgements on how women who wear a veil feel.

 

[Barbie]

shall we go to ministry in veils and a bottle of poppers

I think we're the only ones being silly in this thread, I'm going back to the pretensious w@nker thread

 

[Moha]

It's the responsability of the individual with ostentious religious signs if he/she is singled out

Hannah; I made a point without getting all the out of context quotes.
Fin

 

[Moha]

I think we're the only ones being silly in this thread, I'm going back to the pretensious w@nker thread

We'd rather have you "beihg silly" than categoric(sp?).
Have a nice week end

 

[Morbyd]

Why oh why are British people so easy to tample on?

Well, you see Hannah, there's a little thing we like to call civil liberty.

Being naked is one thing (and don't try to tell us it's the same thing!)... but if you want the government to legislate what you can wear then what's next?

There are exceptions... private employers can of course have some requirements about dress. Schools might be another place.

But are you actually going to tell me that the government of any country should legislate what a person can wear when walking down the street?

Next, you'll tell me that freedom of speech is really really important to you

 

[Luke C]

is this really any different to other religions who seem to bizzarely have a code of dress for some reasons, Look at jewish men and women, why is it the men always were black suits with those ridiculous hats and have beards, and why do their wives look like marks and spencer victims wearing the same thick tights, tweed skirts and bob hair styles.

This why i have no religion and have little respect for any religion either. If someone wants to believe in some greater being,,,then great, but why have the fancy dress out fit to label yourself as part of the gang.

i detest religion and all the trappings that go with it.

 

[Beckiboo]

I dont have a problem with the veil, or the meanings behind the veil, or the Islam faith. I just have a problem with anyone who feels that have to, or want to, cover themselves head to two in a black sheet. Why?!

Yes other faiths have quirky dress codes too... but you can still see the person underneath. If you happen to engage in a conversation with an orthadox jew in full jewish gear, you can still see the person underneath. You can't do that with a woman in a full burkha.

As it happens in India I intend on buying some traditional dress, probably a salwar kameez, which is the tunic and loose bottoms that most Indian women wear, simply because it's the coolest and most easy to wear item of clothing out there! I've also heard that headscarfs are a must-have aswell in hot weather, so I'm not totally against anyone who wants to wear these type of clothes. I just dont get the totally covered, all in black thing. Surely they cant be happy under there?

 

[utagaura]

Moha...I don't know if I understand your quote or not. Are you saying it is the choice of the muslim woman whether she is different or not?

I've not said a muslim woman shouldn't do it because she's going to get singled out.

My main argument, which is clearly shared by most of the people in this thread, is that British people don't like it. The majority of people have said 'they can wear what they want' but that is the British way. We are too nice for our own good.

British people do not like it as it makes them feel uncomfortable.

So you don't like it? Lots of things I don't like.. doesn't mean I have any right as to what SOMEONE ELSE can wear. It doesnt' sounds like very many people are being very nice about it int his thread

 

[lynch]

I dont have a problem with the veil, or the meanings behind the veil, or the Islam faith. I just have a problem with anyone who feels that have to, or want to, cover themselves head to two in a black sheet. Why?!

Yes other faiths have quirky dress codes too... but you can still see the person underneath. If you happen to engage in a conversation with an orthadox jew in full jewish gear, you can still see the person underneath. You can't do that with a woman in a full burkha.

As it happens in India I intend on buying some traditional dress, probably a salwar kameez, which is the tunic and loose bottoms that most Indian women wear, simply because it's the coolest and most easy to wear item of clothing out there! I've also heard that headscarfs are a must-have aswell in hot weather, so I'm not totally against anyone who wants to wear these type of clothes. I just dont get the totally covered, all in black thing. Surely they cant be happy under there?

hello. How you veiling?