kimajy
Well-Known Member
If they'd managed to roll a vaccine out and get 2 doses delivered by the time Xmas comes around this would be fine, but as it is just asking to sink the ship for a ha'penny worth of tar when you look at it dispassionately.
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If they'd managed to roll a vaccine out and get 2 doses delivered by the time Xmas comes around this would be fine, but as it is just asking to sink the ship for a ha'penny worth of tar when you look at it dispassionately.
2H76
Well-Known Member
Question - is it worth having a jab if for the six months after you still have nowhere to go or someone to see? It's gonna take a long tome to get enough of the population vaccinated so that most of the restrictions can be removed - my big pull for a jab would be if it allows me to fly. But that's no good if my town is in severe lockdown and I can't travel out of it (to the station or airport).
I don't understand this line of thinking. Individuals have proven ad nauseum that they cannot be counted on to make the choices that benefit society with respect to COVID.
I'm going to get philosophical here...
Can someone please define what placing 'responsibility on individuals' actually means? Because as far as I can tell there is no burden of responsibility at all for individuals. Is there a penalty for getting someone else sick? With European health care system even the cost of 3 weeks in an ICU isn't their responsibility, society will cover it. Idiots = people who ignore rules but Individual Responsibility = people who give it 5 minutes of thought, then ignore rules.
"Well, if the idiots are going to do it I may as well do it too," is a complete abdication of personal responsibility for the outcome of the pandemic. The reality is there is not individual solution to a societal problem.
This makes me think of an axiom I like... People are not rational, but they rationalize. None of us really have the ability to determine the risk of acquiring COVID during a given activity, what our personal health outcome would be, who else we might infect and what their outcome could be, and so on... How can you responsibly take a risk you cannot actually assess? Even if you could put a number on it, most of us would rationalize it with... "but its Christmas."
All fair points, so I'll rephrase, "placing responsibility on oneself". If you can look yourself in the mirror and say, "I've been responsible". Isn't that essentially what we've all been doing anyway?
Let's not forget, that the government themselves have shown a complete lack of responsibility
As for the idiots, the worst examples will completely ignore the advice and the protocol. Then you'll get every shade up to people who are largely sensible, but will be willing to break the rules to see their grandkids open presents at Xmas
In honesty, you'd struggle to find anybody who has played by the rules 100% from start to now. Minor infractions everywhere you look. And realistically, that's going further out the window at xmas. Moreso, because of the ill considered promises made by the people at top
Hally
Well-Known Member
I know something that definitely doesn't ?
Hally
Well-Known Member
If we give people the green light dont expect to have a functioning NHS in February
Hally
Well-Known Member
I was with you up until Xmas
Just saw they made a nice IG video about it. Basically temperature checks and some sort of sanitizing fog to walk through. You’re supposed to wear masks too, but many people won’t once inside venue.
Nice to see Sven doing an event down there. Makes me wish I was going, sort of.
Need to do the candy inside with this. No but honestly i think its great idea to get things going again.
We tend to imagine ourselves as the hero of our own story not the villain. We ascribe ourselves more virtue and assign others malice. You might never know or see or interact personally with somebody you could infect, you'd never be aware of the consequences so how could you possibly hold yourself responsible for a negative outcome?
I cant speak for Europe, but in the US most of the cases fueling our world leading outbreak are attributed to small social gatherings in private spaces. The exact type of event most people feel reasonably responsible when they limit themselves to... The evidence seems to indicate there is a massive gap between what actually is responsible versus what feels responsible.
I agree with you on the practical reality but I have to ask, is this really working for anybody? It just really stands out to me that cultures that are more deferential to authority like SE Asia have licked this thing pretty well and the countries that place high value on individualism are struggling. I'm not sure if its reasonable or not to have expected people to change a deep cultural foundation in 9 months for this pandemic, but it certainly appears necessary.
@white_isle_calling Thank you for taking the time to discuss. I hope you know I was not challenging you personally. I appreciate the back n forth to unload some things id been pondering lately.
It's a pleasure
Asian countries have indeed been the gold standard for fighting this pandemic. But even so high-surveillance and a society that complies through fear of recrimination are a high price to pay, when Covid will be defeated in the next year. If that's wrong, and we're still fighting this pandemic 12 months down the line, maybe I'll re-evaluate.
If we gave our governments this type of control, my fear is they would never surrender it. While I do think we've swayed too far the other direction, I hope there could be a happy balance to strike. But maybe I'm a dreamer and there isn't?
Of course, none of us can truly grasp the consequence of seemingly inconsequential actions and the sum of each of them. Doing so would surely drive anybody insane. Once you go down that rabbithole, where do you stop? Human nature has a tendency to prescribe guilt where there is none or amplify it. Then there are those who sooner blame others than look introspectively. But probably, deep down, that is also a mechanism for guilt.
So I find the actually responsible vs feels responsible dilemma an interesting one. Maybe we care too much about the things we can't change and too little about the things we can?
Maybe if our leaders could lead by example, we'd see a greater level of compliance? I think most humans are a little rebellious to varying degrees
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It's a pleasure
Asian countries have indeed been the gold standard for fighting this pandemic. But even so high-surveillance and a society that complies through fear of recrimination are a high price to pay, when Covid will be defeated in the next year. If that's wrong, and we're still fighting this pandemic 12 months down the line, maybe I'll re-evaluate.
If we gave our governments this type of control, my fear is they would never surrender it. While I do think we've swayed too far the other direction, I hope there could be a happy balance to strike. But maybe I'm a dreamer and there isn't?
Of course, none of us can truly grasp the consequence of seemingly inconsequential actions and the sum of each of them. Doing so would surely drive anybody insane. Once you go down that rabbithole, where do you stop? Human nature has a tendency to prescribe guilt where there is none or amplify it. Then there are those who sooner blame others than look introspectively. But probably, deep down, that is also a mechanism for guilt.
So I find the actually responsible vs feels responsible dilemma an interesting one.
Maybe if our leaders could lead by example, we'd see a greater level of compliance? I think most humans are a little rebellious to varying degrees
As an American who remembers pre and post 9/11 I totally understand the fear of ceding power to a government and never getting it back. I also think this is complicated further by the failures of government you've noted. Ceding some freedom to actually end the pandemic is a different proposition than ceding some for continued ineptitude.
I also agree that at this point some of the conversation is moot as we are closer to the end than the beginning. I just hope we have some collective memory about how this played out and people will be willing to sacrifice more when the costs are still small versus the extended challenges we are living through should we find ourselves facing down another pandemic.
I'm really interested in this part, since if we continue on our path of environmental catastrophe, it's conceivable we'll experience another to this degree in our lifetime. Maybe we get lucky and we don't or maybe we'll be in the vulnerable category next time?
I'd been quite keen to learn about our behaviour as a society during the Spanish flu outbreaks, if such material exists? At least there will be no shortage of documentation for the covid pandemic
The Sun God
Well-Known Member
At least we know what Boiler Room used their government grant on now ?
4tothefloor
Active Member
I see Judge Jules has retrained as advised by the Government
The Sun God
Well-Known Member
Sánchez claims Spain will be at the EU forefront rolling out vaccines alongside Germany, hoping to cover a large section of the population by June 2021...
Dare we begin to dream?
Dare we begin to dream?
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