☣ Coronavirus ☣

[Sassette]

This reply has nothing to do with my post about what's happening in Germany. It's striking serious matters of social importance down with: "People get sick, people are dying, you are selfish etc.". This is what has been happening for over a year now.



Same story. If I would reply now with: Well...we've been scared with images and stories of shortage of ambulances in the UK, this graph does not show this. You would probably say: believe what you want, but hospitals are full with sick people dying etc.

In all countries, society is being manipulated to stay scared and obedient. Even while numbers go down, treatments are getting better, vaccination is underway.

hang on though the German report relates to the first wave ... you are well overplaying this “fear porn” thing ... certainly here in the U.K. where our government made a total hash of responding to the first wave (unlike Germany) I for one would have preferred them to dress up the impact rather than underplay it like they did ... it’s not as if a government has never lied to its citizens it happens all the time here (see Brexit) ... so I really don’t see this report as any sort of “gotcha” moment

 

[djmicd123]

That's definitely happening here...and the government is not even hiding it. They have said; While numbers are going down, we are extending the evening curfew because new variants MIGHT cause a new rise in cases.

The issue in the UK is that deaths and hospitalisations are still extremely high, so people are not questioning the restrictions as much as they were late summer / early autumn. But I accept that, once our hospitalisations drop like a rock in May, people will start calling for all restrictions to be lifted (see my previous post).

 

[kimajy]

What you've said above @kimajy is about trying to eradicate the illness altogether. Bringing cases down to an absolutely minimal and stopping travel abroad so as to avoid new variants entering. This was never the aim of social restrictions and CMO said from Day 1 that we will be living with this virus forever - it is unrealistic to get cases to zero.

Keeping the virus out (or at least numbers to near-negligible is the strategy adopted by Australia and NZ. UK has never realistically been able to do that because of the scale of the initial peak, keeping borders open and having insufficient testing capability last year. Now that those parameters are shifting, aims and options might well follow. That's basically what I am driving at. A country where domestically you could open fully is surely a better life for a year than one in which you have leisure travel and ongoing restrictions ?

That's flattening a curve that has not even happened yet. Seen my post about Germany a few post back? I don't think this has only happened there.

That's only because vaccination progress is too far behind right now and they don;t want to be faced with trying to vaccinate with a soaring curve on their hands. We've been through this already !

 

[Hally]

I stumbled upon this on Twitter.
@Hally could you shine your light on this graph?
View attachment 11464

Yes, it's a load of shit

 

[Johnny Vodka]

I don't know what to think any more. All I am reading now is that full lockdown will be extended well into summer, May at the earliest for socialising/hospitality.

One part of me thinks that they are using the new strains as an excuse to keep us locked down - harsher for longer.

Seriously, no government actually enjoys locking people down like this - it's an entirely necessary measure under the circumstances.

 

[2H76]

The issue in the UK is that deaths and hospitalisations are still extremely high, so people are not questioning the restrictions as much as they were late summer / early autumn. But I accept that, once our hospitalisations drop like a rock in May, people will start calling for all restrictions to be lifted (see my previous post).

The dates for the next restrictions debate are 15th Feb with an announcement 22nd. If they could wait a fortnight, the figures will improve so much by then that they could announce real restriction lifting virtually immediately. But because we have to send the bloody schoolkids back to bloody school, they will have these announcements then and keep us in lockdown for another six weeks when - half-way into that - we find out it simply isn't necessary, but they can't bring forward ending restrictions.

Just hope the figures of cases/deaths/hospitalisations tank in the next 5 days.

 

[Hally]

This reply has nothing to do with my post about what's happening in Germany. It's striking serious matters of social importance down with: "People get sick, people are dying, you are selfish etc.". This is what has been happening for over a year now.



Same story. If I would reply now with: Well...we've been scared with images and stories of shortage of ambulances in the UK, this graph does not show this. You would probably say: believe what you want, but hospitals are full with sick people dying etc.

In all countries, society is being manipulated to stay scared and obedient. Even while numbers go down, treatments are getting better, vaccination is underway.

Except we had busiest days every day for ambulances day after day in January as did trusts all over the country

Dont ask me to join in any debate , I really dont give a f*** at this point. If people want to think it was all made up or exaggerated that's up to them

 

[2H76]

Seriously, no government actually enjoys locking people down like this - it's an entirely necessary measure under the circumstances.

Fair enough, but they should be making much more effort in getting people to meet socially safely. We just feel forgotton.

it's mental torture, in prison but without a release date. Criminals have more rights than us r/e mental health.

 

[djmicd123]

Keeping the virus out (or at least numbers to near-negligible if the strategy adopted by Australia and NZ. UK has never realistically been able to do that because of the scale of the initial peak, keeping borders open and having insufficient testing capability last year. Now that those parameters are shifting, aims and options might well follow. That's basically what I am driving at. A country where domestically you could open fully is surely a better life for a year than one in which you have leisure travel and ongoing restrictions ?

The issue with closing borders and keeping cases near zero (like NZ have done) is that there is never going to be a right time to reopen the borders. The virus isn't going to disappear and will always remain in circulation. Close your borders in summer 2021, but how will summer 2022 and 2023 differ? I think the focus should be on the NHS and ensuring people do not become seriously ill / die with Covid. That is a realistic endgame, rather than trying to eradicate it altogether from the UK which may mean closing borders for many years to come.

If people are not becoming seriously unwell, surely this is a level society must tolerate (like we do with flu - 20,000 flu deaths on average each year). Given the efficacy of some of the Covid vaccines already approved, I suspect we will see less deaths than we do with flu in years to come (the flu vaccine had a lower efficacy than all approved Covid vaccines shown in trials).

 

[djmicd123]

The dates for the next restrictions debate are 15th Feb with an announcement 22nd. If they could wait a fortnight, the figures will improve so much by then that they could announce real restriction lifting virtually immediately. But because we have to send the bloody schoolkids back to bloody school, they will have these announcements then and keep us in lockdown for another six weeks when - half-way into that - we find out it simply isn't necessary, but they can't bring forward ending restrictions.

I agree completely. I think setting out a full roadmap mid-February is a bit soon, as 2-3 weeks later we really could see hospitalisations drop ten-fold. The main concern for me is setting out a roadmap which ends with "some social distancing still in place" (like @FlatErik has said NL have done).

A roadmap out of this has to end with a point where nightclubs and festivals can restart, with no social distancing in place. A roadmap ending with social distancing requirements is not acceptable in my view, as this mirrors summer 2020 (where most stuff had reopened but with social distancing still in place).

 

[FlatErik]

Yes, it's a load of shit

Official numbers are a load of shit. Okay.

 

[2H76]

The issue with closing borders and keeping cases near zero (like NZ have done) is that there is never going to be a right time to reopen the borders. The virus isn't going to disappear and will always remain in circulation. Close your borders in summer 2021, but how will summer 2022 and 2023 differ? I think the focus should be on the NHS and ensuring people do not become seriously ill / die with Covid. That is a realistic endgame, rather than trying to eradicate it altogether from the UK which may mean closing borders for many years to come.

If people are not becoming seriously unwell, surely this is a level society must tolerate (like we do with flu - 20,000 flu deaths on average each year). Given the efficacy of some of the Covid vaccines already approved, I suspect we will see less deaths than we do with flu in years to come (the flu vaccine had a lower efficacy than all approved Covid vaccines shown in trials).

I suppose a lot depends on whether people with the vax can still spread the virus significantly. If A (vaxxed) goes to country B where the majority of the population are already vaxxed, then even if it can still be passed on it shouldn't cause a health crisis if those vaxxed are no worse than mildly ill.

Someone unvaxxed though entering a country might be an issue as who looks after them if they become unwell? Example, if 100,000 tourists unvaxxed descended on the Balearics this/next summer, and a lot became ill, there would be issues finding hospital space for them etc.

As anyone can travel throughout Europe (exc UK/Ire) freely, the only way to have a mandatory vaccination rule is no hotel stay without that certificate (just like at a hotel you have to show your ID normally).

But basically, I reckon 75%+ adults have to be vaxxed before tourism can restart.

 

[2H76]

I agree completely. I think setting out a full roadmap mid-February is a bit soon, as 2-3 weeks later we really could see hospitalisations drop ten-fold. The main concern for me is setting out a roadmap which ends with "some social distancing still in place" (like @FlatErik has said NL have done).

A roadmap out of this has to end with a point where nightclubs and festivals can restart, with no social distancing in place. A roadmap ending with social distancing requirements is not acceptable in my view, as this mirrors summer 2020 (where most stuff had reopened but with social distancing still in place).

Think they could get away with mid-late summer outdoor festivals - maybe with restrictions on capacity and in autumn nightclubs with restricted capacity (and see how it goes). Maybe fully reopen in January outside of the xmas rush.

As for festivals, not sure anyone would be confident in arranging them for the remainder of this year, so for that alone they probably won't happen. Whitby Goth Festival has missed last Easter, last October and now this Easter. Three down one to go....

 

[FlatErik]

hang on though the German report relates to the first wave ... you are well overplaying this “fear porn” thing ... certainly here in the U.K. where our government made a total hash of responding to the first wave (unlike Germany) I for one would have preferred them to dress up the impact rather than underplay it like they did ... it’s not as if a government has never lied to its citizens it happens all the time here (see Brexit) ... so I really don’t see this report as any sort of “gotcha” moment

Oh I definitly see this as "gotcha" moment for Germany. What's the difference if it's about the first or second wave?
You think it's okay the government lies to it's citizens and uses the scientific world to dress up the impact?

Comparing the German approach to the UK approach is apples and pears. It's about what the German politicians did to scare their people.

 

[2H76]

Another thing to add, the government's website showing number of hospital admissions https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare etc (as I write) is nine days out-of-date. The figures mus now be a ton better than they look there, why aren't they updated to just a couple of days ago? Surely we know how many are currently in hospital with covid??

It's things like this that sow seeds of doubt, hiding good news and all that. They are very quick to say cases are going up, deaths are increasing, but very coy when it's the other way round. Are they scared we all might just go down the pub to celebrate....except that they've shut them??

 

[Sassette]

Oh I definitly see this as "gotcha" moment for Germany. What's the difference if it's about the first or second wave?
You think it's okay the government lies to it's citizens and uses the scientific world to dress up the impact?

Comparing the German approach to the UK approach is apples and pears. It's about what the German politicians did to scare their people.

T

Oh I definitly see this as "gotcha" moment for Germany. What's the difference if it's about the first or second wave?
You think it's okay the government lies to it's citizens and uses the scientific world to dress up the impact?

Comparing the German approach to the UK approach is apples and pears. It's about what the German politicians did to scare their people.

the difference between the first and second wave is that this was a new virus and no-one knew how it would play out ... it’s clear that in an unprecedented public health crisis a government needs to take steps to influence people’s behaviour like never before in a free society ... it’s clear that you don’t agree with any government interference in individuals actions and to trust them to know what is best for society but again certainly here in the U.K I personally don’t believe we are capable of that ...

 

[NilSatis]

Do people think the £1750 quarantine package Matt Hancock has just announced will be all inclusive? Transfers included? Dying for a break...

 

[Hally]

Official numbers are a load of shit. Okay.

Not. Interested

Heard it all before. Many many times.

 

[djmicd123]

Do people think the £1750 quarantine package Matt Hancock has just announced will be all inclusive? Transfers included? Dying for a break...

Madness isn't it... Has the list of "red countries" been previously published? They keep referring to it on Sky News but I'm surprised they've not printed the list again.

 

[kimajy]

The issue with closing borders and keeping cases near zero (like NZ have done) is that there is never going to be a right time to reopen the borders. The virus isn't going to disappear and will always remain in circulation. Close your borders in summer 2021, but how will summer 2022 and 2023 differ?

I guess the thinking is that by that stage much more of the world will have been vaccinated, global prevalence ought to have tanked and most people will have had multiple vaccinations with primed immune systems. We are only at the very outset of deploying a realistic counter-measure against Covid and most other countries way behind. The landscape should be very different by Spring 2022.