America has gone crazy

Hmmm...

A mosque two blocks from Ground Zero...

Hmmm....

lets see...

Has to be built by Teamsters since it's New York City.

Who is going to build this thing?

It's going to take years due to "unavoidable" constuction delays as well as shoddy workmanship from people building it wrong on purpose...

financially, it's a nightmare.

So why would you choose to go through all of that?

Hmmmmm....

You dont have to be a genius to figure it out the agenda here.

L.
 
when you watch the daily show piece its clear as anything.

like total and utter clear as day how wrong the attitude of everyone (the right) on this is.
 
MARKB said:
I think those who are in opposition are missing the point.

By supporting the building of an Islamic centre close to ground zero, the yanks could do much to disprove the extremists' argument that they are anti-islamic.

But by opposing it's development so vehemently, it simply plays neatly into their anti western rhetoric.
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:rolleyes: :spank:
 
Z said:
hey I know all Muslims are not terroists to think that is ridiculous .Im just saying most terrorist attacks are based on Jihad by Extreme Muslim groups, If you dont agree you must be walking around with your eyes and ears switched off..

ok everybody , start calling me a racist....
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You've got a narrow idea of what constitutes terrorism... can't blame you based on the current media attention, but terrorism is something that goes back beyond the recent run of Al Qaeda-inspired events.

ETA, IRA - terrorists. All Christians. The Sikhs in India have some black marks on their name. OK, you can say that these guys have mostly let up.

What about rebel groups in South America? When they attack villages for sport, that's terrorism. Just the other day I read about an operation by joint Rwandan and Congolese rebels where they popped into some village in eastern Congo, raped 400 women and children, and then headed back out into the woods. Terrorism.

So I will not call you a racist. I will say you're wrong.
 
Morbyd said:
You've got a narrow idea of what constitutes terrorism... can't blame you based on the current media attention, but terrorism is something that goes back beyond the recent run of Al Qaeda-inspired events.

ETA, IRA - terrorists. All Christians. The Sikhs in India have some black marks on their name. OK, you can say that these guys have mostly let up.

What about rebel groups in South America? When they attack villages for sport, that's terrorism. Just the other day I read about an operation by joint Rwandan and Congolese rebels where they popped into some village in eastern Congo, raped 400 women and children, and then headed back out into the woods. Terrorism.

So I will not call you a racist. I will say you're wrong.
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Ditto
 
in fairness to Z who I think expressed his point quite clumsily - I think he meant there is a unique strain of terrorism associated with jihad which is quite distinct from your IRA/ETA activists.

I remember 2004 when the Madrid trains were bombed - whilst the politicians issued a kneejerk "blame ETA" response, people on the ground sensed immediately that this was an altogether different kind of atrocity - and that response basically cost Aznar his job.

"traditional terrorism" if you like was fairly localised and had specific objectives, whereas jihad - is it terrorism? a war? a cultural revolution? has very vague aspirations and is almost anarchic in how it is executed. So I can understand the paranoia - because even without the rightwing whipping it up , there is a general view that it represents something theocratic and completely alien to our liberal instincts. And that quite frankly unnerves me as much as unrestrained capitalism or old school dictatorships.

so the dilemma is do you try to integrate Islam with all its uglier, darker elements or do you put the barricades up?

now the reaction to this has been hysterical - as said before, it's only an islamic centre, a few blocks away, certainly not some masked warrior planting a burning stars and stripes in the ground. It is also worth noting hundreds of muslims died on 9/11 too...

nevertheless, America and the rest of the western world needs to decide how much islamic influence there should be in liberal society - eg should sharia law be accepted in English courts - I would be pretty concerned about that. Recent fatwahs against harmless Danish satirists for offending islam - again I find that pretty disturbing, that's where the focus needs to be, and it annoys me that people on the right have once again hijacked a serious issue just to play to the gallery
 
Olly said:
nevertheless, America and the rest of the western world needs to decide how much islamic influence there should be in liberal society - eg should sharia law be accepted in English courts - I would be pretty concerned about that. Recent fatwahs against harmless Danish satirists for offending islam - again I find that pretty disturbing, that's where the focus needs to be, and it annoys me that people on the right have once again hijacked a serious issue just to play to the gallery
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Well said on all of your post.

My response to Z was specific to his phrasing, of course. e can talk for days on what specifically Islamic terrorism means for the future, and the difference (is there a moral difference?) between localized and exported terrorism.

But on this last point quoted above, America has put itself in an interesting catch-22 because we've got this Constitutional right to freedom of religion. Even if there's a majority with issues against Islam or other religions, they have no legal basis upon which to fight it... to a point.

Could Sharia law come into play? I doubt it, because we also have Constitutional rights to trial by jury, equal protection, etc. I think they'd cancel out. Satirists have freedom of speech and the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (see: South Park creators) so threats against their lives are similarly already beyond what's acceptable.

But a religous community center? Ya, sure whatever you want.
 
Olly said:
in fairness to Z who I think expressed his point quite clumsily - I think he meant there is a unique strain of terrorism associated with jihad which is quite distinct from your IRA/ETA activists.

I remember 2004 when the Madrid trains were bombed - whilst the politicians issued a kneejerk "blame ETA" response, people on the ground sensed immediately that this was an altogether different kind of atrocity - and that response basically cost Aznar his job.

"traditional terrorism" if you like was fairly localised and had specific objectives, whereas jihad - is it terrorism? a war? a cultural revolution? has very vague aspirations and is almost anarchic in how it is executed. So I can understand the paranoia - because even without the rightwing whipping it up , there is a general view that it represents something theocratic and completely alien to our liberal instincts. And that quite frankly unnerves me as much as unrestrained capitalism or old school dictatorships.

so the dilemma is do you try to integrate Islam with all its uglier, darker elements or do you put the barricades up?

now the reaction to this has been hysterical - as said before, it's only an islamic centre, a few blocks away, certainly not some masked warrior planting a burning stars and stripes in the ground. It is also worth noting hundreds of muslims died on 9/11 too...

nevertheless, America and the rest of the western world needs to decide how much islamic influence there should be in liberal society - eg should sharia law be accepted in English courts - I would be pretty concerned about that. Recent fatwahs against harmless Danish satirists for offending islam - again I find that pretty disturbing, that's where the focus needs to be, and it annoys me that people on the right have once again hijacked a serious issue just to play to the gallery
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Good points here.

How can the american right hope to win hearts and minds in Kabul when they are demonising muslims back home to win some political points?

Stupid.
 
Olly said:
in fairness to Z who I think expressed his point quite clumsily - I think he meant there is a unique strain of terrorism associated with jihad which is quite distinct from your IRA/ETA activists.

I remember 2004 when the Madrid trains were bombed - whilst the politicians issued a kneejerk "blame ETA" response, people on the ground sensed immediately that this was an altogether different kind of atrocity - and that response basically cost Aznar his job.

"traditional terrorism" if you like was fairly localised and had specific objectives, whereas jihad - is it terrorism? a war? a cultural revolution? has very vague aspirations and is almost anarchic in how it is executed. So I can understand the paranoia - because even without the rightwing whipping it up , there is a general view that it represents something theocratic and completely alien to our liberal instincts. And that quite frankly unnerves me as much as unrestrained capitalism or old school dictatorships.

so the dilemma is do you try to integrate Islam with all its uglier, darker elements or do you put the barricades up?

now the reaction to this has been hysterical - as said before, it's only an islamic centre, a few blocks away, certainly not some masked warrior planting a burning stars and stripes in the ground. It is also worth noting hundreds of muslims died on 9/11 too...

nevertheless, America and the rest of the western world needs to decide how much islamic influence there should be in liberal society - eg should sharia law be accepted in English courts - I would be pretty concerned about that. Recent fatwahs against harmless Danish satirists for offending islam - again I find that pretty disturbing, that's where the focus needs to be, and it annoys me that people on the right have once again hijacked a serious issue just to play to the gallery
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well said olly
I wish i had kept my mouth shut,
I guess terrorism is the wrong word to use,The problem is the
dark ideology some hardcore muslims have..
 
Z said:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

hey I know all Muslims are not terroists to think that is ridiculous .Im just saying most terrorist attacks are based on Jihad by Extreme Muslim groups, If you dont agree you must be walking around with your eyes and ears switched off..

ok everybody , start calling me a racist....
Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Great_Britain

They've been responsible for hardly any of them in this country.

I'm not going to call you a racist for 3 reasons;

Firstly I think you've just bought in to the press.
Secondly the size of the attacks has obviously been much worse.
thirdly a religion is not a race.
 
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