9/11

[Morbyd]

maybe that one falls inot gareth's category of one stone/two birds, cos the pipeline thru afghanistan was only made possible by the war and it stinks like a rat when the man then installed as chief there used to be advisor to same said neo-con company.:x

The Taliban were onboard with that pipeline project, and if they had won control of the country their way (as they were close to doing) then there probably would have been less chance of random terrorists blowing up the pipeline were it built. In other words, the war didn't change the situation either way. Plus, I don't think that pipeline will ever be built (stupid Unocal pipe dream, excuse the pun... I used to deal with these guys in K-stan)

i fcukin hate the western attitude on this, like for example, the shock horror of london 7/7. ffs, we are at war, therefore if we trample through Iraq and civilians become collateral damage, then you can expect something in return. proportionately, we've come out with a graze on our knee and a bruised ego. Iraq will be left barely standing.

I saw a great interview on the Daily Show with an American guy that worked on Al Jazeera's new English news channel for a while and wrote a book (must remember the name of that book... need to buy it). He told a story about how he was at Virginia Tech Univ. last spring and was standing around with hoardes of other journalists waiting to go live.

I forget exactly - either he never went on air or went on the air in the latter part of the half-hour while everyone around him was on air at the beginning of the half hour. That day, tens of people had died in a major suicide attack in Iraq. That was the lead story on Al Jazeera, not the 20-something dead in Virginia.

It's all about perspective.

 

[Morbyd]

he's said a lot of things that never made sense.

just a shame 62,040,606 People couldnt see through his bull****.

At least 59,028,109 saw what was going on. Could have been worse!

 

[djchewie]

At least 59,028,109 saw what was going on. Could have been worse!

never realised that 62,040,606 lived in the middle bit

 

[grego]

I saw a great interview on the Daily Show with an American guy that worked on Al Jazeera's new English news channel for a while and wrote a book (must remember the name of that book... need to buy it). He told a story about how he was at Virginia Tech Univ. last spring and was standing around with hoardes of other journalists waiting to go live.

I forget exactly - either he never went on air or went on the air in the latter part of the half-hour while everyone around him was on air at the beginning of the half hour. That day, tens of people had died in a major suicide attack in Iraq. That was the lead story on Al Jazeera, not the 20-something dead in Virginia.

It's all about perspective.

yes but that is media perspective, i'm talking about what people are thinking in their heads. of course 7/7 got press and was shocking and caused upset and grief, bla bla bla....but it is the mindset of people to think unreservedly that somehow 7/7 was evil and how dare they and all that, when actually those same people have, are represented by people doing something similar in Iraq.

that is nothing to do with perspective and everything to with double standards.

 

[grego]

never realised that 62,040,606 lived in the middle bit

exactly, at first i hated just bush cos (like with blair) you can end up getting conned, altho did you see his inauguration day when he got pelted with eggs and they had to cancel the walk round .

but then, when he got re-elected, i realised that 60 million americans were at least as stupid as bush!! for fcuks sake, fair enough pick a wrong'un once but to then pick him again. god bless america!

 

[djchewie]

how long has it taken for public opinion to turn around???? 4yrs+

ive seen clips on You Tube, where the average american was asked where iraq was and barely any of em knew.

kinda makes me wonder, did any of the 60m+ actually know what they were voting for?

why blair and bush got on so well was probably both were masters at making you believe in what they were saying on trust. - the whole spin machine has ruined politics.

yes soldiers are dying and iraqis are getting blownup/beheaded/stoned on a daily basis, but hey, we're doing a damn fine job!

 

[Morbyd]

To be clear, I wasn't disagreeing with you on that, Grego. Just giving a related example.

I think people do need to understand that the scale of grief that we've caused elsewhere, especially in Iraq, is massive compared to what we've experienced at home. Chickens coming home to roost is a harsh way of looking at it - life is dear whether it's one or one million - but at the same time, no one should feel that their grief is superior.

 

[Morbyd]

but then, when he got re-elected, i realised that 60 million americans were at least as stupid as bush!! for fcuks sake, fair enough pick a wrong'un once but to then pick him again. god bless america!

Blair spent a decade in office... more than Bush ever will!

 

[djchewie]

Blair spent a decade in office... more than Bush ever will!

he's spent more than a decade in office... he's taken us from having a budget surplus to being over £10bn in debt... thats ok if the economys growing steady as it is, but we're screwed if it slows to a halt.

anyway, back on topic.

they say you reap what you sow. - so were ****ed on that front too!

what a cheery tueday!

 

[grego]

To be clear, I wasn't disagreeing with you on that, Grego. Just giving a related example.

I think people do need to understand that the scale of grief that we've caused elsewhere, especially in Iraq, is massive compared to what we've experienced at home. Chickens coming home to roost is a harsh way of looking at it - life is dear whether it's one or one million - but at the same time, no one should feel that their grief is superior.

exactly. the death toll in Iraq has just become a number now, a whole country has been devastated and in the UK and US life has continued pretty much unchanged (other than the budget cuts in order to increase spend on defence/military).

worse than that, the actions of bush and blair have created a irreperable split between the west and the middle east, which will only lead to more cases of 9/11 and 7/7, the exact thing the wars were hoping to eliminate.

re: blair, his premiership is and will be defined by Iraq, other than that he would have gone down as one of the most successful PMs ever. Bush on the other hand is and will always be a fcukin moron of the highest order

 

[grego]

re: blair, his premiership is and will be defined by Iraq, other than that he would have gone down as one of the most successful PMs ever. Bush on the other hand is and will always be a fcukin moron of the highest order

and before chewie starts with his tory boy ways, blair is as much of a c*nt as thatcher.........both dyed in the wool tories, both backward fcuks who think killing people is something to be proud of and both recognised as "successful", whatever that means.

 

[djchewie]

other than that he would have gone down as one of the most successful PMs ever.

sorry had to laugh.

 

[grego]

sorry had to laugh.

i've beaten you to it son

 

[Digger]

i fcukin hate the western attitude on this, like for example, the shock horror of london 7/7. ffs, we are at war, therefore if we trample through Iraq and civilians become collateral damage, then you can expect something in return. proportionately, we've come out with a graze on our knee and a bruised ego. Iraq will be left barely standing.

I'm sure it was not your intention to trivialise, but to Londoners 7/7 felt somewhat worse than a grazed knee. I also imagine it would feel like more than a bruised ego to Liverpudlians should something similar ever happen on Merseyside.

Madrilenos would similarly be bemused to hear the March 10 bombings thus described.

Yes, invading Iraq was stupid and made things worse. Yes, we have every reason to be deeply suspicious of the motives of Bush and all his fellow travellers.

But what we cannot do is lose sight of the fact that the other side in the war you speak of has an even more pernicious worldview.

They don't want Muslim nations subjugated to Western democracy like the neo-cons.

They want those nations unified by force into a global Caliphate governed by sharia. According to Arab commentators, I understand, al-Quaida's goal is for this to be established by 2020, ready for a final apocalyptic confrontation with the West.

It may be barmy, but the West's failure to take these visions seriously in the 1980s and 1990s is one of the reasons why things are as they are.

As the Dutch ex-MP Hirsi Ali has warned, appeasement simply is not an option if the West wants to hold onto its freedoms, partial and compromised though they may be.

That, unfortunately, means being prepared to use force against al-Quaida and its affiliates wherever they are. Distasteful, but there it is.

 

[djchewie]

and before chewie starts with his tory boy ways, blair is as much of a c*nt as thatcher.........both dyed in the wool tories, both backward fcuks who think killing people is something to be proud of and both recognised as "successful", whatever that means.

i really dont think you can compare the 2 - one went to war because a little Island was being invaded. the other went to war for about a billion different reasons that kept changing - WMD - Saddams a bad man.

if you think Blair was a dyed in the wool Tory, then it goes to show how desperate Labour were to get back into power, now he's gone, everything is slowly unravelling... again with the Bush thing, ive spent the last decade with a feeling that someone has stuck something in the water, or they both had a hint of the Demon Headmaster about them (google it up John )

 

[grego]

I'm sure it was not your intention to trivialise, but to Londoners 7/7 felt somewhat worse than a grazed knee. I also imagine it would feel like more than a bruised ego to Liverpudlians should something similar ever happen on Merseyside.

Madrilenos would similarly be bemused to hear the March 10 bombings thus described.

Yes, invading Iraq was stupid and made things worse. Yes, we have every reason to be deeply suspicious of the motives of Bush and all his fellow travellers.

But what we cannot do is lose sight of the fact that the other side in the war you speak of has an even more pernicious worldview.

They don't want Muslim nations subjugated to Western democracy like the neo-cons.

They want those nations unified by force into a global Caliphate governed by sharia. According to Arab commentators, I understand, al-Quaida's goal is for this to be established by 2020, ready for a final apocalyptic confrontation with the West.

It may be barmy, but the West's failure to take these visions seriously in the 1980s and 1990s is one of the reasons why things are as they are.

As the Dutch ex-MP Hirsi Ali has warned, appeasement simply is not an option if the West wants to hold onto its freedoms, partial and compromised though they may be.

That, unfortunately, means being prepared to use force against al-Quaida and its affiliates wherever they are. Distasteful, but there it is.

i clearly didn't intend to trivialise, nor think I did, but my point was about what has happened proportionately. 7/7 will always be a memory point, cos in a war, just like famous battles/incidents, we remember the dead. so for the people involved that is all that matters.......

but government decision or ideology or foreign policy are never (or very very rarely) decided based upon an individual case but having considered the wider picture. so my point is that the UK can consider itself lucky that in this particular war 7/7 is an isolated incident and not a daily occurrence.

the events you elude to in relation to "the other side" are in a distant future, if they are ever to occur at all. al-quaida/al-qaeda just do not have that influence in the region, in spite of everything.

 

[Digger]

the events you elude to in relation to "the other side" are in a distant future, if they are ever to occur at all. al-quaida/al-qaeda just do not have that influence in the region, in spite of everything.

I wish I could be so sanguine.

Meanwhile, Saudi Arabia funds madrassas across the globe that preach hatred of kufars. Large parts of Pakistan are already Talebanised. There are also signs that the Shia/Sunni schism is being put aside by Iran as it seeks to build up the terrorist capacity of Egypt's leading al-Quaida organisation.

Bin Laden may well never achieve his dream, just as Hitler did not succeed in laying the foundations of the 1,000-year Reich. But he and his fellow Islamofascists will do a lot more damage along the way, including by provoking the worst instincts of our leaders.

 

[MARKB]

i really dont think you can compare the 2 - one went to war because a little Island was being invaded. the other went to war for about a billion different reasons that kept changing - WMD - Saddams a bad man.

if you think Blair was a dyed in the wool Tory, then it goes to show how desperate Labour were to get back into power, now he's gone, everything is slowly unravelling... again with the Bush thing, ive spent the last decade with a feeling that someone has stuck something in the water, or they both had a hint of the Demon Headmaster about them (google it up John )

Blair made a mistake with Iraq. But his government have been successful in many other ways, economy, education, welfare state. You know, those little things. And i'm talking about facts not "my granny once had to wait for an hour in casualty".

Chewie, the opportunities available to the normal man in the street are far better now than under any tory government. But Iraq was a mistake.

Change of leadership is good for the labour government and country as a whole. Brown actually surprised me despite my initial thoughts of him. What do you mean everything's unravelling after Blair's exit? It seems to be stronger.

 

[utagaura]

I had just moved to Japan at the time, I had been there a month and was at a friend's place and we were watching TV and the first plane had been hit. I remember thinking it was just a fire, but then we saw the second plane hit.

When I went to work the next morning everyone was asking me if my family was OK ( even though, wrong country, totally opposite sides of the continent! ) but i knew they were just concerned. I had a flight booked to Cambodia/and thailand later, and I knew I just felt sick about flying so soon after that.

 

[djchewie]

Blair made a mistake with Iraq. But his government have been successful in many other ways, economy, education, welfare state. You know, those little things. And i'm talking about facts not "my granny once had to wait for an hour in casualty".

Chewie, the opportunities available to the normal man in the street are far better now than under any tory government. But Iraq was a mistake.

Change of leadership is good for the labour government and country as a whole. Brown actually surprised me despite my initial thoughts of him. What do you mean everything's unravelling after Blair's exit? It seems to be stronger.

Economy - inherited from previous govt - oh and that sneaky 1p in NI that wasn't "a tax rise". - turning a budget surplus into a deficit... private pensions raped by gordy brown...
Education - top up fees anyone? - our kids are getting fatter, ruder cant spell, cant write... no wonder employers are going to Poland to find Skilled workers

The Olympics - christ we're hosting the 2012 games if anyone didnt know... oh ****, we forgot to submit the VAT we're liable from the construction work, and the Treasury will not budge.

Welfare State - Family Tax Credit over payments scandal.

Add to that Crime - didnt he say he was going to be "tough on crime and tough on the causes of Crime"? - prison places running low, so what do we do, let em out early! - 10yr olds getting shot, stabbed by fellow teens...

Immigration - the govt estimate of 160,000 workings coming from the enlarged EU - christ, and they accuse the other side of having sums that dont add up.

NHS - mega million pound computer system that doesn't work properly, more and more doctors leaving the UK cos they cant get a job in that areas they've specialised in. Influx of foreign docs to fill the gap (which ive never understood) - also that **** up on the job application computer thingie. AND from personal experience being fobbed off with pills, and being told i had to wait 6 months to see someone, to which i thought, bollocks, i can either go bonkers while holding down a job to pay for it myself (which i have done, and was the best money ive ever spent EVER!)

EU Constitution - is it or isnt it a constitution or is it a treaty? either way let the public decide.

Public Sector - jesus, im sure if they stopped pissing millions of pounds re-organising departments every 24months, maybe then could they afford to give public sector workers at least an inflation matching pay increase.

Transport - Loved Prescott's 10yr plan. christ, i even designed the bloody report for the highways agency at the time, great retrospective reading, intergrated my arse. and from personal experience, driving in the UK is a pain in the arse. not viable alternatives if you live outside of the major towns and cities, plus public transport is EXPENSIVE in peak time, never gets you from A-B on time, cos half the routes are blocked with traffic containing the people who would use the bus if it wasnt for the choked up roads or the fact that the trains aint running cos someone ordered the wrong biscuits, and theyre on strike....i would move nearer to work, but hey, cant buy any property, cos someone forgot to build more houses, and everythings over inflated and out of reach for "mr normal (ish)"


apart from that, everythings hunky dory!

if only everything New Labour was well executed and not turned into a ****ing money wasting shambles, maybe just maybe i would say, you were the greatest PM EVER Tony!