9/11

If anyone is interested there are some really interesting extracts from a Naomi Klein's new book on how the US government manipulated the post 9/11 agenda to favour US big business in the guardian at the mo.

I know that it was closer to home, I know it was visually & emotionally unreal to experience even from my desk in the UK, I know that we have Americans posting here & do I not mean to be insensitive, nor a wishy washy liberal BUT, a couple of thousand were killed - as oppossed to say 70,000 and counting on the most conservative estimate in Darfur. And thats just the conflict off the top of my head. However we do not react with the shock, outrage & collective grief. I think this is a shame.
 
agentundercover said:
If anyone is interested there are some really interesting extracts from a Naomi Klein's new book on how the US government manipulated the post 9/11 agenda to favour US big business in the guardian at the mo.

I know that it was closer to home, I know it was visually & emotionally unreal to experience even from my desk in the UK, I know that we have Americans posting here & do I not mean to be insensitive, nor a wishy washy liberal BUT, a couple of thousand were killed - as oppossed to say 70,000 and counting on the most conservative estimate in Darfur. And thats just the conflict off the top of my head. However we do not react with the shock, outrage & collective grief. I think this is a shame.
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unfortunately, theres no capital interest for anyone to get involved in Darfur or places like that.
 
I worked in the World Trade Center for a few months. Our office was on the 55th floor. I had colleagues still there when 9/11 happened but I was back working in the London office. We have direct open lines with loudspeakers between the two desks. When the first plane hit, we knew within seconds as the guys were shouting down the line to us that something had happened to the building, like an explosion or earthquake, and that they had to leave.
Within minutes pictures appeared on the tv and we were hearing that a plane had hit but the news was sketchy at best. News reports were saying it was a light plane etc etc. But it didnt look like a light plane to us looking at the tv.

About ten minutes after the guys said they were leaving the building one of them came back over the loudspeaker to say he was ok etc. We asked him why he wasnt getting out and he said that as they were going down the stairs building fire marshalls kept telling them that it was an explosion in the other building and that everything would be ok in their buidling and it would be safer for them to go back to their desks.
Three out of ten of our staff came back to their desks, the rest left. But when they spoke to us over the direct phone link and realised the severity of the problem, they decided to leave again.

We didnt get to speak to any of them after that for around 6 hours but thankfully they all got out. They did say though that they saw so many people going back up the stairs to their seats as they were directed by fire marshalls.
 
I'm sure that any "thinking person" fully understands that Sept 11 was a drop in the bucket when you consider the death and mayhem that goes on in much of the world on a daily basis.

I think it resonated because

a) we weren't used to mass deaths on our own soil nor terrorism, home grown (with the exception of Oklahoma City) or foreign. No history of, for example, the dissident bombings in UK (IRA), France (Algerians) or Spain (ETA).

b) the scale of it. 2000 people in just over an hour, with added massive property damage.

I'm more concerned with the way 9/11 was used to push the Bush administration's overall agenda, not just business but the neo-conservative view on international affairs. In my view, it's only made things worse. Plus, it turned my country into a very strange place for several years. Only this past Christmas did I feel people were getting back to normal .
 
spunkymonkey said:
They did say though that they saw so many people going back up the stairs to their seats as they were directed by fire marshalls.
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That's the South Tower, right? I don't think people even thought at that point that a second plane could be on its way. Better to have people contained than milling about outside while the autorities dealt with the other tower.

Little did they know that a plane would hit. And lower down this time. And that South Tower would be the first to collapse.

Glad your colleagues made it out.
 
Morbyd said:
I'm more concerned with the way 9/11 was used to push the Bush administration's overall agenda, not just business but the neo-conservative view on international affairs. In my view, it's only made things worse. Plus, it turned my country into a very strange place for several years. Only this past Christmas did I feel people were getting back to normal .
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This happened in the UK too. Blair used 9/11 and 7/7 as an excuse to start taking away our civil liberties, with the excuse that this would somehow make us more secure.

I don't want to attribute more foresight than is necessary to Bin Laden, but he probably realised he could manipulate the West's leaders into destroying the freedoms our countries have so painstakingly assembled since the Enlightenment.

Islamofascists are annoyingly good at exploiting our weak spots. I agree with Hirsi Ali: appeasing them will bring us nothing but grief.

That's why, even though I did not support the original war, I believe Britain and America cannot leave Iraq yet and, even more importantly, they must do whatever it takes to defeat the Taleban Islamofascists in Afghanistan.

Whatever it takes.
 
Morbyd said:
That's the South Tower, right? I don't think people even thought at that point that a second plane could be on its way. Better to have people contained than milling about outside while the autorities dealt with the other tower.

Little did they know that a plane would hit. And lower down this time. And that South Tower would be the first to collapse.

Glad your colleagues made it out.
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Completely agree....I probably would have gone back myself. Nobody had any idea what was going on.
 
Morbyd said:
I'm more concerned with the way 9/11 was used to push the Bush administration's overall agenda, not just business but the neo-conservative view on international affairs. In my view, it's only made things worse. Plus, it turned my country into a very strange place for several years. Only this past Christmas did I feel people were getting back to normal .
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you've only got less than 2 years with that lot in charge havent you?

god bless your constitution! ;)

i wonder what agenda the next one in has.
 
Morbyd said:
I'm more concerned with the way 9/11 was used to push the Bush administration's overall agenda, not just business but the neo-conservative view on international affairs. In my view, it's only made things worse. Plus, it turned my country into a very strange place for several years. Only this past Christmas did I feel people were getting back to normal .
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exactly. i know moore's 9/11 film is a very one sided look at things but it's hard not to feel sick to the bone, totally disgusted in fact, by the fact that 9/11 was used to front attacks on afghanistan and iraq, which ultimately lined the pockets of the neo-cons through oil/defence/reconstruction contracts.

bush was never bothered about al qaeda, he just wanted rid of saddam for personal reasons and to be able to exert more control in the region as a whole.

fcukin makes me sick
 
Digger said:
Th

That's why, even though I did not support the original war, I believe Britain and America cannot leave Iraq yet and, even more importantly, they must do whatever it takes to defeat the Taleban Islamofascists in Afghanistan.

Whatever it takes.
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Ditto all the points on the neo con agenda etc.

What came first do you think, the decisions to ramp up 'homeland security'/invade Iraq etc etc or the realisation (and I quote Klein here) that it opened up a whole new market for American Industrial growth?i.e Keynsian economics, but instead of the state building hospitals they start wars.

OR did they do it with the best neo con intentions(!) of regime change to enact democracy, with the economic benefits as a side issue that was realised in tandem or later.

I think the difference is huge. The Caryle group etc can be expected to exploit a situation that exists, however the idea that the decisions post 9/11 taken might have been informed by a direct wish for economic gain is a shocker.
 
Power of Nightmares

If anyone has not seen this documentary on the rise of neo con & radical islamic movements then I heartily recommend it.

Major flaws dont get me wrong, but incredibly thought provoking.

i.e power of Russia hugely exaggerated during cold war to give the US population a common enemy (now that liberalism/individualism has done with religion & shared moral beliefs we need something to keep us in check).

And so on.
 
agentundercover said:
Ditto all the points on the neo con agenda etc.

What came first do you think, the decisions to ramp up 'homeland security'/invade Iraq etc etc or the realisation (and I quote Klein here) that it opened up a whole new market for American Industrial growth?i.e Keynsian economics, but instead of the state building hospitals they start wars.

OR did they do it with the best neo con intentions(!) of regime change to enact democracy, with the economic benefits as a side issue that was realised in tandem or later.

I think the difference is huge. The Caryle group etc can be expected to exploit a situation that exists, however the idea that the decisions post 9/11 taken might have been informed by a direct wish for economic gain is a shocker.
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but for various reasons it seems clear it was, particularly bush's rhetoric (his own and not the stuff prepared for him) has increasingly moved away from anything to do with the reasons with going to war post 9/11. saying stuff like "you can't win the war on terror" and "i don't care where bin laden is" :? :x
 
agentundercover said:
If anyone has not seen this documentary on the rise of neo con & radical islamic movements then I heartily recommend it.

Major flaws dont get me wrong, but incredibly thought provoking.

i.e power of Russia hugely exaggerated during cold war to give the US population a common enemy (now that liberalism/individualism has done with religion & shared moral beliefs we need something to keep us in check).

And so on.
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it's just like how the church used/uses the devil
 
Sorry should have written that in better English.

I meant I would be shocked that that was the motivation behind the decision. Not that those who hold that idea are shocking!

Has he actually now said you cant win a war on terror - well soddin hell!

Really recommend you read yesterdays guardian G2 if you have not.
 
thanks for link 'I have a clear vision and a strategy to win the war on terror'

what I would give for a copy of that dossier/report/brief paragraph on 'good guys beating dem bad guys'!
 
agentundercover said:
i.e power of Russia hugely exaggerated during cold war to give the US population a common enemy
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...and the Russians were led to believe we were planning to attack at any moment.

Fear is a wonderful tool for politicians. Create enough of it and you can basically have carte blanche. Wiretapping, surveillance, even checking your library book records. All courtesy of the US Congress and Patriot Act. Yay. (Of course, you in the UK are watched on Big Brother CCTV cameras constantly... I find that somewhat disconcerting)

Grego - one point I'll disagree on - Afghanistan. I don't think it's the contractor's panacea that is Iraq. Plus, I believe the world is a better place for what we've done there, and that the majority of Afghan people are happy not to be living in a constant state of war as they had the previous 20 years. That's from someone who has lived and traveled in the region (and been through 100 police checkpoints in neighboring Uzbekistan).

Pretty sad, however, that we failed to catch one small bunch of guys in the process.

Of course, there might not have been a Taliban if we hadn't armed and radicalized the Mujaheddin to fight to Soviet invasion... but we could go through a whole catalogue of cause-and-effect.
 
Morbyd said:
...and the Russians were led to believe we were planning to attack at any moment.

Fear is a wonderful tool for politicians. Create enough of it and you can basically have carte blanche. Wiretapping, surveillance, even checking your library book records. All courtesy of the US Congress and Patriot Act. Yay. (Of course, you in the UK are watched on Big Brother CCTV cameras constantly... I find that somewhat disconcerting)

Grego - one point I'll disagree on - Afghanistan. I don't think it's the contractor's panacea that is Iraq. Plus, I believe the world is a better place for what we've done there, and that the majority of Afghan people are happy not to be living in a constant state of war as they had the previous 20 years. That's from someone who has lived and traveled in the region (and been through 100 police checkpoints in neighboring Uzbekistan).

Pretty sad, however, that we failed to catch one small bunch of guys in the process.

Of course, there might not have been a Taliban if we hadn't armed and radicalized the Mujaheddin to fight to Soviet invasion... but we could go through a whole catalogue of cause-and-effect.
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maybe that one falls inot gareth's category of one stone/two birds, cos the pipeline thru afghanistan was only made possible by the war and it stinks like a rat when the man then installed as chief there used to be advisor to same said neo-con company.:x

i fcukin hate the western attitude on this, like for example, the shock horror of london 7/7. ffs, we are at war, therefore if we trample through Iraq and civilians become collateral damage, then you can expect something in return. proportionately, we've come out with a graze on our knee and a bruised ego. Iraq will be left barely standing.
 
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