#GE2017

Blair and the Iraq war shoulder a huge responsibility for why Labour is so divided at the moment.
On one-side you have people who were anti-war from the beginning and despise any Blairite MP in the party (there are a lot left). Another problem with these MPs is that they're basically 'Tory-lite'. The voting record of some is indistinguishable from the most hardened Tory.

Any then you have the Labour voters who call themselves 'moderates' or 'centrists', who don't really mind all of that and despise the likes of Corbyn and anyone a bit on the left. These are the type of people who think we should have another referendum on Brexit, who won't learn the lessons of the previous failings of the Labour party in becoming out of touch with the 'ordinary man' etc.

You also can't overstate the impact of Brexit on this election. Many people seem willing to overlook the threat to the NHS, pensions, the Tories poor record RE foodbanks and homelessness etc., just to get Brexit pushed through in as 'hard' a way as possible. Madness if you ask me, but this is the way things are going. Things aren't going to get better until we hit rock bottom, but unfortunately people seem so blind at the moment that we have a long way to go. Perhaps then we'll start to see the rise of Labour again.

Oh and the media absolutely can not be discounted as having huge influence. You only need to look to recent history and the propaganda of the Nazi party to see how devastatingly effective media campaigns can be. And just as it was then in Germany, they remain hugely poweful in the UK today. And make no mistake where the loyalties of the UK Press lie:

Daily Mail - owned by DMG media with Viscount Rothemere at the helm. As if the title gave you any doubt, Tory through and through. A non-dom who pays no tax on his stately home. Backed Tory/Lib Dem in last election. The Metro also comes under this media group.

Daily Telegraph - owned by the Barclay Brothers (Sir Frederick and Sir David..) Reclusive billionaires, friends of Thatcher and documented tax avoiders. Backed Tories in last election.

The Sun/The Times - Rupert Murdoch. I don't intend to waste much time writing about him. See: Hillsbrough, phone hacking, headlines consisting of vile lies (which result in hidden retractions/apologies) that are too numerous to count. You also need look no further than Fox News to see the damage that Murdoch and his empire can do to credible news reporting. Also Thatcher's mate.

Daily Express/Star. Backed UKIP in the last election. Owned by Richard Desmond. Donated over a million pounds to UKIP.

The Guardian and The Mirror and the papers generally backing Labour, although the Guardian can't stop itself from attacking Corbyn (the liberal commentators such as those featured in the Guardian will be the end of us). Guardian is owned by Scott Trust LTD, the Mirror by Trinity Mirror.

 
Terry (and her advisors) knows she's going to win, good reason to call an election imho.

She needs more than 3 years for a hard brexit and thats the only reason. That and completely destroying public services for good.
 
Bungle123 said:
Blair and the Iraq war shoulder a huge responsibility for why Labour is so divided at the moment.
On one-side you have people who were anti-war from the beginning and despise any Blairite MP in the party (there are a lot left). Another problem with these MPs is that they're basically 'Tory-lite'. The voting record of some is indistinguishable from the most hardened Tory.

Any then you have the Labour voters who call themselves 'moderates' or 'centrists', who don't really mind all of that and despise the likes of Corbyn and anyone a bit on the left. These are the type of people who think we should have another referendum on Brexit, who won't learn the lessons of the previous failings of the Labour party in becoming out of touch with the 'ordinary man' etc.

You also can't overstate the impact of Brexit on this election. Many people seem willing to overlook the threat to the NHS, pensions, the Tories poor record RE foodbanks and homelessness etc., just to get Brexit pushed through in as 'hard' a way as possible. Madness if you ask me, but this is the way things are going. Things aren't going to get better until we hit rock bottom, but unfortunately people seem so blind at the moment that we have a long way to go. Perhaps then we'll start to see the rise of Labour again.

Oh and the media absolutely can not be discounted as having huge influence. You only need to look to recent history and the propaganda of the Nazi party to see how devastatingly effective media campaigns can be. And just as it was then in Germany, they remain hugely poweful in the UK today. And make no mistake where the loyalties of the UK Press lie:

Daily Mail - owned by DMG media with Viscount Rothemere at the helm. As if the title gave you any doubt, Tory through and through. A non-dom who pays no tax on his stately home. Backed Tory/Lib Dem in last election. The Metro also comes under this media group.

Daily Telegraph - owned by the Barclay Brothers (Sir Frederick and Sir David..) Reclusive billionaires, friends of Thatcher and documented tax avoiders. Backed Tories in last election.

The Sun/The Times - Rupert Murdoch. I don't intend to waste much time writing about him. See: Hillsbrough, phone hacking, headlines consisting of vile lies (which result in hidden retractions/apologies) that are too numerous to count. You also need look no further than Fox News to see the damage that Murdoch and his empire can do to credible news reporting. Also Thatcher's mate.

Daily Express/Star. Backed UKIP in the last election. Owned by Richard Desmond. Donated over a million pounds to UKIP.

The Guardian and The Mirror and the papers generally backing Labour, although the Guardian can't stop itself from attacking Corbyn (the liberal commentators such as those featured in the Guardian will be the end of us). Guardian is owned by Scott Trust LTD, the Mirror by Trinity Mirror.
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That's an excellent post,and it's spot on!
 
the other point about the media is that EVERYONE moans about it

i've seen the morning star and daily mail BOTH moan about the BBC on the same day.

the supposedly right-wing BBC, which hounded blair/campbell over Iraq, and which some tories would love to privatise

No, the real question is why are so many people prepared to overlook the tories deficiencies, when so much is obviously going wrong as identified above?

it is partly the fact that corbyn is an old school socialist in a country that doesn't vote for old school socialists, it is partly the fact all the ukip voters have been absorbed by the tories and it is partly a general hunch that may's team seem a lot more united than corbyn's chaos machine.

I also think Labour are in trouble in the same way the left are in trouble around Europe - old unionised movements are no longer relevant to the self-employed, the transient or workers who have been made extinct by robots

there is also a lot of eye-rolling at the obsession with identity politics, which is big on campuses but probably alien to some little old lady in a small town

the other point to remember is that Brexit is the only real issue in town, because everything in your life eg nhs, services, investment depends on how much the UK can afford and the better the deal with the EU, then the better the deal for those services. all these issues are indelibly linked.

However, I think a lot of it is to also do with English nationalism, the one identity people across the country relate to. that's not something you can rationalise or reason with. it's emotion from the gut. scottish and irish nationalism are cool but English nationalism is a bad thing right?
 
Amp and Deck said:
there is also a lot of eye-rolling at the obsession with identity politics, which is big on campuses but probably alien to some little old lady in a small town
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This is a fact. What an effective opposition which wants to govern needs to do is hone in on a few popular big ticket policies that football supporters who somehow still buy The Sun will love. The extra Bank Holidays is a great one but you need the manage the message. How will we pay for it ask the plumbers and brickies on Facebook? Marginal tax increases on the ultra-rich. So marginal they will barely notice and your jobs will be safe.
 
If he promised to do things that struck a chord, people would relate to him more. But he's too stuck in the lecture theatre.

If he said he'd (off top of head) increase the speed limit on motorways, move the capital north to another city, legalize the weed, cut day to day red tape, oblige trains to have windows you can actually open, attack the health & safety tyranny, protect old pubs/wimpys as listed buildings, look at ways to revive town centres, introduce more wifi, and overhaul police so they actually bother to investigate all crimes instead of filling forms then that kind of stuff might resonate in a way that woolly rhetoric about unfairness does not
 
Amp and Deck said:
the other point about the media is that EVERYONE moans about it

i've seen the morning star and daily mail BOTH moan about the BBC on the same day.

the supposedly right-wing BBC, which hounded blair/campbell over Iraq, and which some tories would love to privatise

No, the real question is why are so many people prepared to overlook the tories deficiencies, when so much is obviously going wrong as identified above?

it is partly the fact that corbyn is an old school socialist in a country that doesn't vote for old school socialists, it is partly the fact all the ukip voters have been absorbed by the tories and it is partly a general hunch that may's team seem a lot more united than corbyn's chaos machine.

I also think Labour are in trouble in the same way the left are in trouble around Europe - old unionised movements are no longer relevant to the self-employed, the transient or workers who have been made extinct by robots

there is also a lot of eye-rolling at the obsession with identity politics, which is big on campuses but probably alien to some little old lady in a small town

the other point to remember is that Brexit is the only real issue in town, because everything in your life eg nhs, services, investment depends on how much the UK can afford and the better the deal with the EU, then the better the deal for those services. all these issues are indelibly linked.

However, I think a lot of it is to also do with English nationalism, the one identity people across the country relate to. that's not something you can rationalise or reason with. it's emotion from the gut. scottish and irish nationalism are cool but English nationalism is a bad thing right?
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scottish and irish football fans, vs english football fans
scottish and irish nationalism vs english nationalism
not quite that simple, I know, but very telling all the same
 
DarrenW said:
It was pretty severe in the days of the IRA too, but we got through that. The powers that be want us to be scared so they can gain more control.
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Yup. Hence the Snooper's Charter, which only the Lib Dems stood against. Not a perfect party, but will either be them or Greens for me most likely. Brits are quick to throw away civil liberties, although progress will be made if the Tories bring back fox hunting. :confused:
 
Johnny Vodka said:
. Not a perfect party, but will either be them or Greens
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Don't trust the libdems. As I said at the top of this thread,if they play the 48% they will jump,straight back into bed with the Torys.

7 years ago today,they let the Torys f*** us!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative–Liberal_Democrat_coalition_agreement

What sort of person has a poster of the milk snatcher on their bedroom wall...? Yep,a Christian homophobe.. tim farron is a proper Tory boy. He would love to be sat next to mistress may in the house of 'not so' commons..

Tim Farron admits he had Thatcher poster in his childhood bedroom

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...erview?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Brits are quick to throw away civil liberties, although progress will be made if the Tories bring back fox hunting. :confused:
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:lol:
 
At least the Lib Dems will legalise the herb. We might need a lot of herb to get us through these next few years.
 
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