Russia Getting Bold!
- Thread starter Buckley
- Start date
agentundercover
Active Member
yeah sort it out!
you be the conduit. Tell Russia to just chill the f uck out & stop being such a drama queen & tell the west to stop siding with all these nations on Russia's borders - pragmatism is a needed (oh and if you could shift the nukes from Poland, thats just a leetle bit provocative).
West far from innocent on this once. Georgian leader a mentalist.
you be the conduit. Tell Russia to just chill the f uck out & stop being such a drama queen & tell the west to stop siding with all these nations on Russia's borders - pragmatism is a needed (oh and if you could shift the nukes from Poland, thats just a leetle bit provocative).
West far from innocent on this once. Georgian leader a mentalist.
Morbyd
Moderator
If we hadn't just done the same thing to Serbia with Kosovo that the Russians are doing to Georgia, we might actually have some moral high ground to stand on 
It's frustrating... especially because there is simply no telling the Russians that they're wrong in this situation. I've tried...
It's frustrating... especially because there is simply no telling the Russians that they're wrong in this situation. I've tried...
this is a combination of different issues all converging at the same time
1. historic enmity between Georgian and Russian nationalists coming to the surface
2. Russia regaining its self-confidence on the back of energy wealth and refinding its feet after the chaos of the yeltsin years
3. Russia exploiting Western division and weakness - at least 2 NATO leaders Brown/Bush are lame ducks and have no appetite for conflict now; the Russians have skillfully and ruthlessly exploited this, knowing full well NOBODY will aid the Georgians militarily
4. Georgian recklessness, arrogance and naivety in assuming a NATO application form is the same as a NATO membership card
5. Russians sending a message to the world that its southern flanks are its and NOT the Americans' "sphere of influence"
NOW this presents all sorts of potentially explosive signals to the West - whilst military conflict is unlikely, a new cold war of sorts could evolve - however, set against this, the West will have to engage with the Russians whilst EU states like Germany are dependent on Russian gas pipes AND will need Russian co-operation against the mad islamicists in Iran and Afghanistan... Of course, the Russians have total contempt for democracy, sovreignty, human rights, but then they always have... and the Medvedev-Putin duopoly commands massive support at home - they have nothing to lose... what we are seeing though is not a return to the USSR but a restirring of Tsarist nationalism and it is frightening to see how far they will push and bully other nations. The Ukranians, Poles and baltic states are all kakking themselves and it's not hard to see why... intense cyber conflict initiated by Russian hackers is alrady causing chaos in Lithuania and elsewhere and it will onlu intensify...
McCain or Obama is going to be faced with an almighty struggle to keep the Russians under control in 2009 and all the options at the moment look pretty DARK...
1. historic enmity between Georgian and Russian nationalists coming to the surface
2. Russia regaining its self-confidence on the back of energy wealth and refinding its feet after the chaos of the yeltsin years
3. Russia exploiting Western division and weakness - at least 2 NATO leaders Brown/Bush are lame ducks and have no appetite for conflict now; the Russians have skillfully and ruthlessly exploited this, knowing full well NOBODY will aid the Georgians militarily
4. Georgian recklessness, arrogance and naivety in assuming a NATO application form is the same as a NATO membership card
5. Russians sending a message to the world that its southern flanks are its and NOT the Americans' "sphere of influence"
NOW this presents all sorts of potentially explosive signals to the West - whilst military conflict is unlikely, a new cold war of sorts could evolve - however, set against this, the West will have to engage with the Russians whilst EU states like Germany are dependent on Russian gas pipes AND will need Russian co-operation against the mad islamicists in Iran and Afghanistan... Of course, the Russians have total contempt for democracy, sovreignty, human rights, but then they always have... and the Medvedev-Putin duopoly commands massive support at home - they have nothing to lose... what we are seeing though is not a return to the USSR but a restirring of Tsarist nationalism and it is frightening to see how far they will push and bully other nations. The Ukranians, Poles and baltic states are all kakking themselves and it's not hard to see why... intense cyber conflict initiated by Russian hackers is alrady causing chaos in Lithuania and elsewhere and it will onlu intensify...
McCain or Obama is going to be faced with an almighty struggle to keep the Russians under control in 2009 and all the options at the moment look pretty DARK...
Morbyd
Moderator
Some very valid and, in my view, correct points there, Olly. But a couple slighly off the mark as well.
The point about hackers is interesting. I think you're referring to Estonia, which was targeted when they decided to move a Soviet monument and a few nearby graves from the center of Talinn to the outskirts. There is anecdotal evidence to suggest that Georgian websites were also targetted before the recent war even started.
I see little to worry about for Poland or Lithuania. Estonia and Latvia have had friction with Russia because of their treatment of Russian-speaking minorities. Ukraine is a strange and interesting case, but I think Russia will work to influence them more politically than militarily (as they have been trying for years now)
While my position is to defend Georgia's territorial integrity (which, as I mentioned earlier, our governments unfortunately weakened their standing to defend thanks to Kosovo), you do have to put yourself in Russia's shoes. Imagine if they were building alliances with, for example, Ireland, Norway and France. The UK might feel somewhat threatened...
No, there's not really any historic enmity there (remember... Stalin was Georgian!). There's resentment among Georgian nationalists about the Russians backing the separatists over the past 15 years, and resentment among Russian nationalists for Georgia's pro-Western stance and desire to join NATO, but those are relatively new developments.
I'm pretty confident Sakaashvili was aware that Georgia isn't part of NATO yet, and that he didn't expect military intervention from NATO. He's a bit of a hothead. The Russians actually provoked him with little skirmishes. He reacted.
No, not total contempt. They've just got other things they're more concerned with
It was interesting to see the Baltic and Polish leaders race down to Tbilisi to show their support.The Ukranians, Poles and baltic states are all kakking themselves and it's not hard to see why... intense cyber conflict initiated by Russian hackers is alrady causing chaos in Lithuania and elsewhere and it will onlu intensify...
The point about hackers is interesting. I think you're referring to Estonia, which was targeted when they decided to move a Soviet monument and a few nearby graves from the center of Talinn to the outskirts. There is anecdotal evidence to suggest that Georgian websites were also targetted before the recent war even started.
I see little to worry about for Poland or Lithuania. Estonia and Latvia have had friction with Russia because of their treatment of Russian-speaking minorities. Ukraine is a strange and interesting case, but I think Russia will work to influence them more politically than militarily (as they have been trying for years now)
While my position is to defend Georgia's territorial integrity (which, as I mentioned earlier, our governments unfortunately weakened their standing to defend thanks to Kosovo), you do have to put yourself in Russia's shoes. Imagine if they were building alliances with, for example, Ireland, Norway and France. The UK might feel somewhat threatened...
fatphilb
Well-Known Member
has anyone started an online petition yet? that might help?
well the paralympics are on next week - lets ruin that
Some very valid and, in my view, correct points there, Olly. But a couple slighly off the mark as well.
No, there's not really any historic enmity there (remember... Stalin was Georgian!). There's resentment among Georgian nationalists about the Russians backing the separatists over the past 15 years, and resentment among Russian nationalists for Georgia's pro-Western stance and desire to join NATO, but those are relatively new developments.
I'm pretty confident Sakaashvili was aware that Georgia isn't part of NATO yet, and that he didn't expect military intervention from NATO. He's a bit of a hothead. The Russians actually provoked him with little skirmishes. He reacted.
No, not total contempt. They've just got other things they're more concerned with
It was interesting to see the Baltic and Polish leaders race down to Tbilisi to show their support.
The point about hackers is interesting. I think you're referring to Estonia, which was targeted when they decided to move a Soviet monument and a few nearby graves from the center of Talinn to the outskirts. There is anecdotal evidence to suggest that Georgian websites were also targetted before the recent war even started.
I see little to worry about for Poland or Lithuania. Estonia and Latvia have had friction with Russia because of their treatment of Russian-speaking minorities. Ukraine is a strange and interesting case, but I think Russia will work to influence them more politically than militarily (as they have been trying for years now)
While my position is to defend Georgia's territorial integrity (which, as I mentioned earlier, our governments unfortunately weakened their standing to defend thanks to Kosovo), you do have to put yourself in Russia's shoes. Imagine if they were building alliances with, for example, Ireland, Norway and France. The UK might feel somewhat threatened...
do you feel obliged to defend the Russian state on here cos you're scared the secret police might read this and come knocking on the door in the middle of the night and cart you off to some Siberian gulag for a spell of "re-education". I totally understand and sympathise. But in my country, I DO STILL have freedom of speech (despite New Labour's best efforts) and my point to you is - the Russian govt are a bunch of corrupt, cynical fascists - who detain and murder people indiscriminately - the journalist Anna Poltskaya (sp?), the dissident Litvinienko, poisoned in a restaurant in London by Russian spies, countless other critical journalists silenced or intimidated, BP staff intimidated, African students beaten up, British Council offices forced to close, Garry Kasparov, now the only opposition leader brave enough to stand up against Putin. The tragedy is most Russians do genuinely like a strong man leader - it's been in the culture since Tsarist times and Yeltsin was despised for "selling out" to the West... but that does not excuse the fascist contempt for democracy held by the Kremlin and its mates in the state media.
As for the West, it's all well and good talking hard, but without actions, the Russians will just be laughing, knowing that the ball is in their court. Listening to the PATHETIC Brown-Miliband rhetoric on the whole Georgian situation, they sound like small kids walking into a pub and asking everyone for a fight....
it's a pretty disturbing situation and I said this before but I hope whoever replaces Bush knows what they're dealing with...
do you feel obliged to defend the Russian state on here cos you're scared the secret police might read this and come knocking on the door in the middle of the night and cart you off to some Siberian gulag for a spell of "re-education". I totally understand and sympathise. But in my country, I DO STILL have freedom of speech (despite New Labour's best efforts) and my point to you is - the Russian govt are a bunch of corrupt, cynical fascists - who detain and murder people indiscriminately - the journalist Anna Poltskaya (sp?), the dissident Litvinienko, poisoned in a restaurant in London by Russian spies, countless other critical journalists silenced or intimidated, BP staff intimidated, African students beaten up, British Council offices forced to close, Garry Kasparov, now the only opposition leader brave enough to stand up against Putin. The tragedy is most Russians do genuinely like a strong man leader - it's been in the culture since Tsarist times and Yeltsin was despised for "selling out" to the West... but that does not excuse the fascist contempt for democracy held by the Kremlin and its mates in the state media.
As for the West, it's all well and good talking hard, but without actions, the Russians will just be laughing, knowing that the ball is in their court. Listening to the PATHETIC Brown-Miliband rhetoric on the whole Georgian situation, they sound like small kids walking into a pub and asking everyone for a fight....
it's a pretty disturbing situation and I said this before but I hope whoever replaces Bush knows what they're dealing with...
in morbyd's defence, he's usually pretty honest about the bad points of life in ruskiland.
one small thing, litvinienko was up to his neck with the mafia. he was hardly some saint. personally, i'd take the kremlin sushi than the mafia highway to hell anyday!
Personally I think the US would like nothing more than getting involved in a conflict with which other country for the amount of money that can be generated from it.
Money for the elite class that is - the weapons company's and contractors (some of the ones funding both sides of the current election) are licking thier lips.
Money for the elite class that is - the weapons company's and contractors (some of the ones funding both sides of the current election) are licking thier lips.
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Morbyd
Moderator
Strange that you read my response above as a defense of the Russian state. Actually, they were just informed points from someone who studied their history and politics in university and has been living here for 7 years.
I'm not defending the Russian state. I think they do a lot of stupid crap. But I do try to judge them objectively and see both sides of the picture, which is more than I can say for most of the media and politicians in the US and UK. And you.
The problem with people like you is that, rather than try to understand the place, you simply feast on the diet of bullsh1t the Western press writes about Russia. Cold War mentality dies hard, and the hypocrisy in the West of acting like our governments never do equally egregious things (recent item: US torturing prisoners at Guantanamo or, as mentioned above, the Serbia-Kosovo example which is in many ways analagous with S. Ossetia-Georgia)
Do you ever hear the other side of these stories? Things like the fact that the British Council were holding commercial English classes, which is not consistent with diplomatic work? That Kasparov has no following and has never been a viable opposition leader? That no one in the corridors of power really gave a rat's ass about Litvenenko (Spy!!???!! Ha! He worked for the FSB, the domestic police! He was in charge of small things like prisoner transfers!). It's not all as black and white as the press would have you believe (although I'm not saying that I don't suspect the worst of Russian on these issues)
The British reporting on this BP story has been atrocious. Employees harassed? Ha. Their business partners in TNK-BP didn't like how the company was being run and BP wouldn't listen.... so they played hardball and didn't apply to renew TNK-BP expat's visas (and the BP people were to dumb to check to see if it'd been done). Oh, and there was some tax issue that actually pre-dated BP's involvement in TNK, which was resolved. BP tried to play PR with it by making out to be Russian persecution and all that, which was a load of bull. Now, as the FT reported last week, they're quietly working out a compromise.
And if you think there aren't corrupt, cynical fascists in our governments (evidence: Dick Cheney) then you are quite naive.
Oh, and I have plenty of freedom of speech, both here and in my country. What a stupid thing of you to say.
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mate, you obv know the country better than me - my experience of Russia is strictly limited to ladies of a certain profession trying to offer me their services in a Helsinki wine bar in 2002! "we accept masterrrcard, visa, american exprrrresss" they said at the end, after I naively thought I had spent the previous hour charming the pants off them with my inane Hugh Grant-speak..
ah well, we'll see how it unfolds - interesting discussion
they said at the end, after I naively thought I had spent the previous hour charming the pants off them with my inane Hugh Grant-speak..ah well, we'll see how it unfolds - interesting discussion
Morbyd
Moderator
Fair enough, Olly... and apologies for the rant. I do get equally riled up when speaking with Russians trying to defend their stance on certain issues You should have seen the argument I had with my secretary about Georgia... she actually believed all the b.s. their press has been feeding the public about this war!
You should have seen the argument I had with my secretary about Georgia... she actually believed all the b.s. their press has been feeding the public about this war!