No, there's not really any historic enmity there (remember... Stalin was Georgian!). There's resentment among Georgian nationalists about the Russians backing the separatists over the past 15 years, and resentment among Russian nationalists for Georgia's pro-Western stance and desire to join NATO, but those are relatively new developments.1. historic enmity between Georgian and Russian nationalists coming to the surface
I'm pretty confident Sakaashvili was aware that Georgia isn't part of NATO yet, and that he didn't expect military intervention from NATO. He's a bit of a hothead. The Russians actually provoked him with little skirmishes. He reacted.4. Georgian recklessness, arrogance and naivety in assuming a NATO application form is the same as a NATO membership card
No, not total contempt. They've just got other things they're more concerned withOf course, the Russians have total contempt for democracy, sovreignty, human rights, but then they always have...
It was interesting to see the Baltic and Polish leaders race down to Tbilisi to show their support.The Ukranians, Poles and baltic states are all kakking themselves and it's not hard to see why... intense cyber conflict initiated by Russian hackers is alrady causing chaos in Lithuania and elsewhere and it will onlu intensify...![]()
whens the protest march then?
has anyone started an online petition yet? that might help?
Some very valid and, in my view, correct points there, Olly. But a couple slighly off the mark as well.
No, there's not really any historic enmity there (remember... Stalin was Georgian!). There's resentment among Georgian nationalists about the Russians backing the separatists over the past 15 years, and resentment among Russian nationalists for Georgia's pro-Western stance and desire to join NATO, but those are relatively new developments.
I'm pretty confident Sakaashvili was aware that Georgia isn't part of NATO yet, and that he didn't expect military intervention from NATO. He's a bit of a hothead. The Russians actually provoked him with little skirmishes. He reacted.
No, not total contempt. They've just got other things they're more concerned with
It was interesting to see the Baltic and Polish leaders race down to Tbilisi to show their support.
The point about hackers is interesting. I think you're referring to Estonia, which was targeted when they decided to move a Soviet monument and a few nearby graves from the center of Talinn to the outskirts. There is anecdotal evidence to suggest that Georgian websites were also targetted before the recent war even started.
I see little to worry about for Poland or Lithuania. Estonia and Latvia have had friction with Russia because of their treatment of Russian-speaking minorities. Ukraine is a strange and interesting case, but I think Russia will work to influence them more politically than militarily (as they have been trying for years now)
While my position is to defend Georgia's territorial integrity (which, as I mentioned earlier, our governments unfortunately weakened their standing to defend thanks to Kosovo), you do have to put yourself in Russia's shoes. Imagine if they were building alliances with, for example, Ireland, Norway and France. The UK might feel somewhat threatened...
do you feel obliged to defend the Russian state on here cos you're scared the secret police might read this and come knocking on the door in the middle of the night and cart you off to some Siberian gulag for a spell of "re-education". I totally understand and sympathise. But in my country, I DO STILL have freedom of speech (despite New Labour's best efforts) and my point to you is - the Russian govt are a bunch of corrupt, cynical fascists - who detain and murder people indiscriminately - the journalist Anna Poltskaya (sp?), the dissident Litvinienko, poisoned in a restaurant in London by Russian spies, countless other critical journalists silenced or intimidated, BP staff intimidated, African students beaten up, British Council offices forced to close, Garry Kasparov, now the only opposition leader brave enough to stand up against Putin. The tragedy is most Russians do genuinely like a strong man leader - it's been in the culture since Tsarist times and Yeltsin was despised for "selling out" to the West... but that does not excuse the fascist contempt for democracy held by the Kremlin and its mates in the state media.
As for the West, it's all well and good talking hard, but without actions, the Russians will just be laughing, knowing that the ball is in their court. Listening to the PATHETIC Brown-Miliband rhetoric on the whole Georgian situation, they sound like small kids walking into a pub and asking everyone for a fight....
it's a pretty disturbing situation and I said this before but I hope whoever replaces Bush knows what they're dealing with...
Strange that you read my response above as a defense of the Russian state. Actually, they were just informed points from someone who studied their history and politics in university and has been living here for 7 years.do you feel obliged to defend the Russian state on here cos you're scared the secret police might read this and come knocking on the door in the middle of the night and cart you off to some Siberian gulag for a spell of "re-education". I totally understand and sympathise. But in my country, I DO STILL have freedom of speech (despite New Labour's best efforts) and my point to you is - the Russian govt are a bunch of corrupt, cynical fascists - who detain and murder people indiscriminately - the journalist Anna Poltskaya (sp?), the dissident Litvinienko, poisoned in a restaurant in London by Russian spies, countless other critical journalists silenced or intimidated, BP staff intimidated, African students beaten up, British Council offices forced to close, Garry Kasparov, now the only opposition leader brave enough to stand up against Putin. The tragedy is most Russians do genuinely like a strong man leader - it's been in the culture since Tsarist times and Yeltsin was despised for "selling out" to the West... but that does not excuse the fascist contempt for democracy held by the Kremlin and its mates in the state media.