middle east/africa

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djjaycool

Active Member
The popular uprising in the middle east and northern Africa has been in the news lately. Are you glad that it's happened or scared sh1tless on the out come of the new governments? Heart goes out to all those killed or injured.
 
Yeah the death tolls are really sad. :(

Makes you wonder if you'd demonstrate in that situation eh?

...

On the whole I don't think this is a time to be fearful. It's an uprising and the beginning of a revolution. If we can't be optimistic about that then what is there left?
 
Robder said:
Yeah the death tolls are really sad. :(

Makes you wonder if you'd demonstrate in that situation eh?

...

On the whole I don't think this is a time to be fearful. It's an uprising and the beginning of a revolution. If we can't be optimistic about that then what is there left?
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Ditto.

I hope that this spreads are far as Syria and Iran, as regime change from within is the only hope for any sort of peace between the West and those countries.

The people are really inspiring, particlarly moving when you see the burkha clad women climbing on top of the tanks fearless and determined. The elation they must feel after years of fear and oppression must been amazing.

Utmost respect for these people. especially the Eygptians demonstrators who cleaned up afterwards with brooms they brought from home. :lol: (Lara Logan incident aside)
 
MARKB said:
Ditto.

I hope that this spreads are far as Syria and Iran, as regime change from within is the only hope for any sort of peace between the West and those countries.

The people are really inspiring, particlarly moving when you see the burkha clad women climbing on top of the tanks fearless and determined. The elation they must feel after years of fear and oppression must been amazing.

Utmost respect for these people. especially the Eygptians demonstrators who cleaned up afterwards with brooms they brought from home. :lol: (Lara Logan incident aside)
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The revolution must be telivised AND tidy!:lol:
 
a lot of it is thanks to al jazeera. what an amazing tv station + internet = people being able to question the old autocrats

however, one thing is questioning what you have, another thing is having a ready alternative

I'm not altogether sure people really want democracy in the way we know it - a lot of genuine democracy is totally incompatible with strict islam

aspects of the 'domino' or 'ripple' effect reminds me of eastern europe in 1989 although the situation is very different

Libya is the most interesting one - I wonder if lockerbie bomber 'three months to live' Al Megrahi will now seek asylum in the UK...
 
Freedom to decide which type of government you have is the key. The international world may not agree with what form it takes, but as long as it is the people choice so be it. I just don't want to see one oppressor traded for another. I look at Al jezzera all the time a good news agency fair without the political spain.
 
I view this whole situation with joy for the people, but also with serious trepidation for the road that lies ahead.

Surely, while peace has been our goal and it was maintained, the propping-up of Mubarak by the West (esp. USA) was not our finest hour and has now put us in an odd position. Will the new government keep the peace with Israel? And will they still be friendly to us? Obviously, those are selfish concerns that shouldn't outweigh the will of the Egyptian people, but it gives me pause.

Same with Libya. Gaddafi has been a thorn in everyone's side but what comes after him? Most interesting, in his case, were his sometimes-positive attempts to become an elder statesman in Africa. And like Mubarak, a leader who insisted on a secular state. Not sad to see him go, of course.

After these 2 and Tunisia (again, what will happen to this staunchly-secular state?), who is next? Does the tidal wave continue west to Morocco or east to Syria and Iran?

And what about Jordan? That would be a tragedy.
 
I think the road ahead for any of these countries is going to be...bumpy. There were worries, admittedly from Mubarak, that extremists would get hold of the country. A view, to some degree, I do share. But that could easily be because I am so used to much of the middle east being pro-western.

One thing on my mind, at least as a western consumer who owns a car, is just how much will petrol go up if these countries decide to no longer help the west? That'll push up all commodities, from food to public transport. And on my pay packet, that's not a pleasant thought.
While I am happy that the people of these countries have stood up and demanded to be heard, I don't think they have the rosy future of democracy that countries like the US have, at least for the foreseeable future.,

There have been protests in a fair number of countries so far, including (but not limited to) Bahrain, Oman, Yemen, Jordan and Iran.
I still find it amazing, that this all sparked from one man setting himself on fire for his rights, to seeing two leaders go completely, and mass unrest in Libya.

And as a member of the EU, just how much are we going to have to pay to help rebuild these countries, in a time when there is mass unemployment across the union? What comes first? Helping ourselves to get out of the trouble we are in, or helping the middle east?
 
Ikoda said:
And as a member of the EU, just how much are we going to have to pay to help rebuild these countries, in a time when there is mass unemployment across the union? What comes first? Helping ourselves to get out of the trouble we are in, or helping the middle east?
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Eu helping the middle east? Are you joking?
For each euro, the EU spends on "helping", the EU gets 10 euros back.
Not long ago, EU leaders were on their knees, to sign contracts with lybia.:spank:

This is big help from france to tunisia:

La France débloque 350 000 euros d'aide pour la Tunisie

LEMONDE.FR avec AFP | 14.02.11 |

350'000 euros don't even pay for Morbyd's finca in Ibiza
 
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Ikoda said:
I think the road ahead for any of these countries is going to be...bumpy. There were worries, admittedly from Mubarak, that extremists would get hold of the country. A view, to some degree, I do share. But that could easily be because I am so used to much of the middle east being pro-western.

One thing on my mind, at least as a western consumer who owns a car, is just how much will petrol go up if these countries decide to no longer help the west? That'll push up all commodities, from food to public transport. And on my pay packet, that's not a pleasant thought.
While I am happy that the people of these countries have stood up and demanded to be heard, I don't think they have the rosy future of democracy that countries like the US have, at least for the foreseeable future.,

There have been protests in a fair number of countries so far, including (but not limited to) Bahrain, Oman, Yemen, Jordan and Iran.
I still find it amazing, that this all sparked from one man setting himself on fire for his rights, to seeing two leaders go completely, and mass unrest in Libya.

And as a member of the EU, just how much are we going to have to pay to help rebuild these countries, in a time when there is mass unemployment across the union? What comes first? Helping ourselves to get out of the trouble we are in, or helping the middle east?
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who's "WE" ?

Libya is absolutely LOADED - the problem is all the money ends up in Gaddafi's pockets and invested in grandiose 'investments' on the costa del sol, and no doubt, swiss banks too

you think the rich are laughing in this country? it ain't nothing compared to the feudal structure of most arab states.
 
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Yes, these countries are loaded, Libya is a fairly rich country, most of which I'd imagine belongs to 1% of the population.

And they don't share their wealth. Most people in Libya are fairly poor, by western standards. And it's usually, in situations like this, the rest of the civilized world that picks up the pieces when this is all over.

However, I wasn't aware that the Arab nations had given the EU vast sums of money, this is news to me, so I stand corrected on that.
 
These are the figures for the first 9 months of 2010, on the exchanges EU/Africa:

Les plus importants déficits commerciaux de l'UE27 au cours des neuf premiers mois de 2010 ont été enregistrés avec la Libye (-15 mrds), l'Algérie (-4 mrds), le Nigéria (-2 mrds), la Guinée équatoriale et la Côte d'Ivoire (-1 mrd chacun) et les plus forts excédents avec l'Égypte (+ 6 mrds), le Maroc (+ 4 mrds), l'Afrique du Sud (+2 mrds) ainsi que le Sénégal et la Tunisie (+1 mrd chacun).

http://www.africa-eu-partnership.org/fr/news/lafrique-représente-9-des-échanges-commerciaux-de-lue27

Sorry it's all in french.

When there is no oil import, EU is largely benificiary.
 
My browser has a built in translator, so I can get the jist of it. (However, it's not always right >.< )

I'm curious as to why we refined their oil, then sent it back to them? Surely it works out cheaper to refine it on site for local use?
 
The firm I work for have done lots of very profitable work over the past few years with Libya, one of our sites was ransacked (although we said good bye at concept design).

Ruthless negotiators who know what they are doing. Often with degrees from ivy league uni's (although we all know that counts for nothing ;)).

The contracts all default to Gadaffis green book, thank fully we never had to test that one in law.

Agree with the above, that a revolution from within was always the best case - so long as the end result is a democratic, secular state. Better the devil you know & on one appears to have any idea what the make up of the oppoisition is in these countries.

Interesting point from andrew sullivan in the times, no USA flags being burnt any where. The passive strategic stance of Obama bearing fruit?
 
I stand corrected... Again. :lol:

As shows, I've never done any research into the economic relationship between the the EU and the Middle East.
 
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