Justice?

G

grego

Active Member
:x :roll: :roll: :?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6646537.stm


1.they were meant to be looking for this guy, very similar don't you think

menezes_osman_203.jpg


2. purely on the basis of this mistaken identity, including reports of him wearing a "thick padded jacket" menezes was postively identified. (he was wearing a blue denim jacket and had different colour skin from the suspect). he had no bag and was carrying no suspicious objects.

3. Menezes hands/arms had already been pinned by his side and him placed back into his seat before any shots were fired.

4. he was shot 7 times in the head..............7 fcukin times....8O :x :x and once in the shoulder.

5. the police have again covered up their shortcomings and the top brass again get away scot free when they have blood on their hands. but it's all ok cos he's a foreigner from a poor country.:roll:

an insight. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/4782718.stm
 
Do I remember correctly that a lot of people on here defended the police actions at the time?

Shame!

Brazen error, then cover up, then everyone let off scott free. The "war on terror" continues....
 
i wasn't on here at the time but i remember having many arguments with apathetic 'oh the police must be right' tossers who said things like "well he must have been running for the train or somethin".

:x:roll:
 
It was murder, pure and simple. For them not even to be disciplined, let alone not be charged with murder should put a shiver up everyone's spine. Stay lucky (and well out of the way of any British armed police).
 
Assuming you're not taking the childish stance of some pseudo-anarchist, then you need to appreciate that we need to give certain people certain powers in society.

The police are one of these special groups. Moreso police markmen.

Unfortunately the law of averages state that tragic errors like this may happen, unquestionably regrettable though they are.

Those of you familiar with the case of the "Guy who got shot for pointing a table leg at a copper" storyline will remember the threats of strike made by member of the SO19 team when a prosecution was threatened to bring those Police Marksman to justice. The groups that called for the prosecution were the standard anti-police pressure groups, and even the immediate facts of the situation completely exonerated the police. Essentially the crux of that situation was that the hard-to-swallow fact of the matter was that Police will make mistakes. The only fact stronger than this is that we need police. And we need (some) police with guns.

So then back to prosecutions. Firstly, the people in charge who's management and poor organisational structuring that developed a Police Force that had a lack of safeguards in place to make mistakes like this happen should be for the high jump. Certainly not the shooters (Unless they deliberately ignored orders, of course, though I think it's established that that wasn't the case.).

At one level it’s an accident. But somewhere up the line it's common or garden negligence (to make these accidents happen). Pure and simple.

Though what do you want to do to them? We stick Enrons Directors in prison for their cover ups, should we do the same for the Police (or the Army?)? I can honestly say I don't know.

I can assure you I've been through a phase of hating the police more than all of you (when Sting left, for example…:oops: ), and everything they stand for, But when the dust settles, we need them; and we need to respect the impossible AND unparalleled job they do.

Though this sounds like I’m calling for no ‘punishment’ for anyone, which sits equally uneasy with me. I suppose I’m just not happy with the bloodthirsty witchhunt calling for police marksmen (whilst making out like they're failed paintball gun organisers) to be put inside.

(Not to mention the fact you have to file Police alongside politicians, bouncers, and traffic wardens, with respect to distancing yourself from them. They will always f*ck the public over, and there’s usually very little you can do about it. Move on, and don’t let it ruin your day…)

All I can say, is that I’m just glad my mistakes at work, at their very worst, are only reflected on a balance sheet.
 
Morbyd said:
Do I remember correctly that a lot of people on here defended the police actions at the time?

Shame!

Brazen error, then cover up, then everyone let off scott free. The "war on terror" continues....
Click to expand...

I don't remember anything defending the police on here - the general consensus was that it was a terrible tragedy at a time when everyone was living in a state of real fear.
 
Firstly, I should admit that my comments above were the result of slightly-drunken outrage on a quick stop at home between various events last night...

But I do remember there were a few schools of thought expressed in the previous discussion of this tragedy, one of them being akin to "yes, sad that it happened, but the police are doing their jobs and god bless them because better this one poor bloke get turned into swiss cheese than suffer another attack."

What we've learned since is that the police weren't doing their jobs very well, and then covered that up.

Dan - All fine and good re: the higher-ups but with regards to the shooters, I'm still in the "excessive force" camp...
 
True indeed, good doctor... I did say that. But read further: I said that because I feared what would happen if they were charged and then acquitted (in the States, you'd see riots! :lol:). And I said they should probably be suspended from duty. That comment you referenced was specific to this case.

As I re-read the BBC's coverage, it looks like the shooters themselves were told "go get the guy" and just followed orders (though perhaps they could have stopped to exercise some judgment? But who knows if there's time to think...) Maybe they are the wrong targets of our outrage.... I can't say. I'll retract my comment to Dan above pending further (sober) consideration.

Edit: and as I re-read that old thread (yes, home bored on a Saturday afternoon :lol:), it looks like most of the gung-ho pro-police statements were made before full information was made public (i.e. no heavy jacket, no running from police, etc.). Interesting that - the police put inaccurate information into the public domain and basically got the desired result in terms of initial reactions, if Spotlighters can be used as a representative sample. What do those same people think now, after knowing they were lied to? (I'm just playing devil's advocate here)
 
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i hear you dan and agree with some parts but this is about justice for an unlawful death.

the shooters, yeah if they've had the all clear to fire then fine but why 7 shots in the head when he'd already been partially detained. so the blame has to be the system that was in place that allowed such a fcuk up and for that, the blame lies squarely with the senior coppers (who across the country seem to relish in testing how much they can get away with) and twats like sir ian blair and i suppose ultimately, tony himself for being so brainwashed by bush's war on terror that the geneva convention can be openly broken at guantanomo and other places. *takes breath*

my main problem with the police these days, and therefore anyone who is a busy, is that they are like government agents.........enforcing ridiculous nanny state laws, forgetting who they are and what they stand for when they pull on a uniform and worst of all accepting apathetically the indoctrination of their raison d'etre from blair's government.

not all coppers are bad clearly but i'm sorry, whoever it is that has to tell people to move away from westminster or whitehall if they raise their voice or carry a placard is a fcukin lowlife scumbag without morals and deserves to be on the receiving end of 7 shots in the head. that's just the tip of the iceberg.

just one example. the inspirational brain haw, whose parliament square montage was raided, yes raided in the dead of night and destroyed by officers, who were probably just "following orders":roll:. so the justice of modern britain is that blair brought in legislation to get rid of the likes of haw but haw had been there so long he proceeded any retrospectivity of the legislation. no matter we'll bring out the legal team and go to the high courts.......it was a fair fight of course, the home office v brian haw!8O, so they "night raided" a peaceful protest by one man anyway.

apathy sucks, be inspired http://www.parliament-square.org.uk/
 
i am shuddering and extremely worried as i never thought this day would come but i shall say it anyway...........



I agree with you, grego
:oops::oops:

a coppers first instict is always to lie and cover up for their mistakes.
 
a tragic example of wrong place wrong time, however lets not forget just what it was like at the time, only due to bad planning & bad luck (on the terrorists part) had another large scale massacre not occured 24hrs earlier, and whilst Im not in any way saying that justifies the police actions it was a horrible mistake and an innocent man was gunned down...but not in cold blood, they were tense times, but the police did f**k up as humans we all do!!

p.s Johnny is the Pentagon still measuring it's sucesses by body count, like in "nam"??
 
jj, i hear you to some extent although the system should be not allow errors like that to be made. i mean the basics were wrong, the skin colour, the description, carrying any packages/rucksack, etc.

that is the first part of the injustice.

for the second part, the lack of disciplinary action, bringing to account, etc..........there is no excuse whatsoever. someone must be held accoutable (agreed prob not the shooters in this instance altho 7 times in the head is far too excessive:roll: :x)
 
And don't forget part 1.5, Grego - the initial release of inaccurate information by the police to serve as a smokescreen from the reality we now know is true.

JJ - What's the Pentagon got to do with it? :? You can't excuse one case of incompetence by pointing to another, even larger example of it! :lol:
 
Morbyd said:
And don't forget part 1.5, Grego - the initial release of inaccurate information by the police to serve as a smokescreen from the reality we now know is true.
Click to expand...

i could cite another infamous police sham/cover up close to my heart that has exactly the same MO. major fcuk up, fatalities, lies, cover up, no accountability/justice.

the problem is that police info is somehow sacrosanct on face value. it is accepted as the 'truth' almost without hesitation by politicians, journos, etc and i suppose why should they think the police would lie to them. before you know it, it has disseminated across the country/world and after that there is no going back, no level of education/enlightment can 100% wipe away the myths that have been created.

the worst part of it all though is that this process of lies and cover ups is systematic. it's not me ranting or my opinion, the evidence is there if you want to explore it - the reason it is not widely publicised is simple for me. can you imagine the state our society would be in if we all held a mistrust of the police proportionate to their actions/behaviour...............scary
 
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