Catalan Referedum

stivi said:
yeah 6pm local time it is.

this isn´t going to end well I have a feeling. PP have dealt the whole subject in the worst possible way ever and now it´s all gonna kick off.
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exactly. they're just the most appalling people, holding this country back
 
binaryfinary said:
What's the deal with Ibiza/the Balearic Islands when it comes to Catalan independence? I know that they have close ties with Catalonia, and many people speak Catalan (Catalan road signs, etc) but are technically a separate autonomous community.

If Catalonia does get independence (as unlikely as that look) do they want to stay part of Spain, join Catalonia? I did see quite a bit of pro-Catalonia graffiti around the island this summer.

Apologies for my ignorance on the issue.
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Believe it or not, there are still a few Catalan academics/romantics who dream of a 'reunited Greater Catalonia', comprising Catalonia, bits of southern France, a few villages in Aragon, all Valencia and Alicante, all the balearic islands and a town in Sardinia called Alghero. (Pigs will fly, of course, before any of that is ever allowed to happen!)
On paper at least, the language is still spoken in all these areas, although nobody in Perpignan or Alghero understood a word I said and Valencia was almost all Spanish.

It's quite funny (but petty...) that catalan TV3 weather always give you the forecast for Valencia and Baleares but never the rest of Spain

when I was in ibiza talking to locals I would say it was 80% spanish 20% ibicenco but I guess it varies across different areas
 
he caved in

- facing a long jail term
- corporates all leaving in droves
- massive pressure from Spain and EU
- a dubious mandate

it would have taken massive cojones to carry on, against that backdrop
 
He can rabbit thats for sure. An hours delay, then a good 35 minutes on telling us what we already know. . Get to the point man, are you declaring or not :D

All in all, If this doesn't go ahead, the political divide, money spent, and the needless violence its caused. I can't see it happening again. It can't happen without Spain accepting the split can it and it seems they arn't going to budge. . Yes the catalans voices have been heard, but thats all it will be unfortunately?
 
balearic joe said:
And we thought the UK had gone tits up since brexit...? Falange, the fascist cunts. The only why to beat them,is to go toe - to - toe .

Check out @thepileus’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/thepileus/status/917099346168074241?s=09
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Ugh, a dreadful shame that a few idiots have to bring things down. I'm an F1 fan, and remember a few racist fans in the crowd at Catalunya one year in full black-face holding signs saying "Hamilton's Family". Needless to say, F1 management were not impressed and threatened to pull the Spanish race (or races as is was then) if it didn't stop. Thankfully it did, and Spain's proud racing heritage and F1 history wasn't ruined by a few utter morons.

I must say though, and this is kind of off topic but I'll bring it back to Spain and Ibiza - I voted Leave, and I mainly did so because of immigration. Now I assume at this point you're thinking "ah, a racist UKIP voter who wants to reduce immigration by fascist means". Quite the opposite. I personally believe in open-borders - a philosophy that is almost inevitable as humanity progresses and there's some very good books on the subject which I highly recommend. It's one of the reasons I love Ibiza - people from all over the world in one big cultural melting pot. Heaven.

But even I accept that as things stand, it isn't possible with finite resources, etc (though the impact immigration has on a country's infrastructure is almost always highly-overstated). Yet because the UK isn't allowed to limit EU immigration as a member state, it makes it very difficult for non-EU citizens to come to the UK. I know people who have been kicked out of the UK simply for not being an EU citizen, and I'm sure we've all seen the horrific news stories like the South African man forced to return "home" when he'd lived here for 20 years and had a wife and child. I know a woman who had the same thing happen to her - her sexuality meant she was threatened at gunpoint, sexually attacked, and all sorts of horrible things in her home country. She was forced to return for no good reason that I could see other than "sorry, non-EU citizen and the paperwork doesn't add up". Now I'm not even saying that we should reduce cheap EU labour in favour of skilled international workers. Sod all of that - open UK immigration to anyone, whether you're from just over the Channel in Calais, or from the outer moons of Jupiter. Forget your background, forget your education. If you want to come to the UK and live here, you should not be discriminated against based on your country of origin. Now I accept that may not happen when we leave, but I've read some promising articles that suggest the balance might be redressed to a decent degree.

Bringing it back to Ibiza, I worry as an EU citizen planning to live and work there, but I note that nothing has been proposed that will make this more difficult even with a "hard Brexit", aside from the usual scaremongering of course. That said, if that's how it goes, that's how it goes. My policy is always to vote on what is best for everyone, not for me personally.

Bringing it back to Catalonia, it's also my principle there. If it is better for the people, either way, then that is what should be done. Instead it seems a small group of politicians are playing games with the future of Spain, Catalonia, and everyone who lives there.
 
binaryfinary said:
Ugh, a dreadful shame that a few idiots have to bring things down
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I don't think it's just a few idiots. Fascism has played a big part in modern Spanish history,and is still a problem. ( I'm happy to be corrected by Spanish people on this point,if they disagree.?) Fascism is on the rise again throughout Europe and the US,and needs to be confronted head on.

binaryfinary said:
I voted Leave, and I mainly did so because of immigration
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So you voted to leave for all the wrong reasons then,and believed the billionaires who told you all our country's problems was down to Jonny foreigner ?

binaryfinary said:
Yet because the UK isn't allowed to limit EU immigration as a member state, it makes it very difficult for non-EU citizens to come to the UK
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This is wrong. There is a eu law which the Belgians use. That you can deport eu nationals if they don't find work within 3 months. When Poland joined the eu,France and Germany put a 200,000 limit on them for 2 - 4 years I can't remember exactly. But Tony Blairs government didn't,and close to a million came. And that's where a lot of the problems stated. Merkel has just been voted in for a fourth term,in Germany I think,and has promised a limit on immigration,to guess what 200,000. So,if your government wants to ' control their borders ' they can.

I said the problems started with Blair. But the torys and their buddy's in the right wing press blame all the problems on immigration. How else do you get away with imposing austerity on country for 10 years, easy blame,the foreigners.

- can't see a doctor, too many foreigners
- house prices are too expensive, bloody foreigners
-class sizes too big,blood foreigners breed like rabbits
-no council houses,all the foreigners took them
- stagnant wages,too many foreigners

You can pretty much blame them for anything if You want?

Just for the record,I don't like the E.U. But the xenophobia, rascism and idiocy that brexit has brought upon us is rediculess.
 
Rajoy gave the Catalans a 5 day ultimatum to clarify the 'ambiguity' over Puigdemont's speech ie have they declared INDY "SI o NO" after he basically said, yes but it's suspended, pending dialogue (lol)

and then if they're still not happy with the answer, there's a good chance they'll chuck catalan govt in jail and impose some kind of direct rule (with all the joy that always brings...)
 
balearic joe said:
I don't think it's just a few idiots. Fascism has played a big part in modern Spanish history,and is still a problem. ( I'm happy to be corrected by Spanish people on this point,if they disagree.?) Fascism is on the rise again throughout Europe and the US,and needs to be confronted head on.
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Sadly true on facism being on the rise in general. I'd like to think though that enough people are against it, and remember what happened in the first half of the 20th century, that it will never get a proper foothold. Look at the likes of the BNP in the UK - thankfully dead and buried.

balearic joe said:
So you voted to leave for all the wrong reasons then,and believed the billionaires who told you all our country's problems was down to Jonny foreigner ?
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If you read my post, you'll see it was quite the opposite of that.

balearic joe said:
This is wrong. There is a eu law which the Belgians use. That you can deport eu nationals if they don't find work within 3 months. When Poland joined the eu,France and Germany put a 200,000 limit on them for 2 - 4 years I can't remember exactly. But Tony Blairs government didn't,and close to a million came. And that's where a lot of the problems stated. Merkel has just been voted in for a fourth term,in Germany I think,and has promised a limit on immigration,to guess what 200,000. So,if your government wants to ' control their borders ' they can.
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I admit my wording perhaps wasn't clear, but yes, I realise we have a cap. It is just very difficult to limit EU immigration so our "quota" quickly gets filled - hence why we've done things like remove Tier 1 immigration making it very hard for non-EU citizens to move the UK. I realise plenty still do, but it is by no means easy and there are many insane restrictions in place.

I'm not sure what you mean by "that's where a lot of the problems stated" - in what way was mass EU immigration a problem? Seems to have worked quite well. I'm just saying it wasn't fair on non-EU immigrants.

balearic joe said:
I said the problems started with Blair. But the torys and their buddy's in the right wing press blame all the problems on immigration. How else do you get away with imposing austerity on country for 10 years, easy blame,the foreigners.

- can't see a doctor, too many foreigners
- house prices are too expensive, bloody foreigners
-class sizes too big,blood foreigners breed like rabbits
-no council houses,all the foreigners took them
- stagnant wages,too many foreigners

You can pretty much blame them for anything if You want?

Just for the record,I don't like the E.U. But the xenophobia, rascism and idiocy that brexit has brought upon us is rediculess.
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Agreed, and that's what I'm saying - they're totally wrong. Immigration accounts for a tiny amount of the strain on public services and infrastructure. Yet certain areas of the press and certain political groups have convinced a fair few people otherwise. That's why voting Leave due to "immigration" was and is seen as racist. I'm saying it can and should be quite the opposite. I'm one of very few people I know who has this viewpoint though, but anyone I've mentioned it to seems to understand my point - why not make something from our decision to leave and open the playing field. Brexit should be a huge boost to immigration, not an excuse to clamp down on it.

Fortunately, as I say, it seems even the "bloody Tories" realise this, and have (rather quietly it must be said) announced plans to pretty much do what I'd hoped for after we leave, and open UK immigration up to anyone, no matter where they're from. As I say though, we're a way off open borders yet and there will still be restrictions, requirements, and quotas, but it's certainly a small step in the right direction.
 
binaryfinary said:
Sadly true on facism being on the rise in general. I'd like to think though that enough people are against it, and remember what happened in the first half of the 20th century, that it will never get a proper foothold. Look at the likes of the BNP in the UK - thankfully dead and buried.
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Yeah it really isn't dead and buried, the EDL are still bubbling away, the likes of Tommy Robinson/Stephen Yaxley-Lennon are now thriving with this push towards the right and the seeming acceptance to use immigration and Islam as the catch-all for everything that's wrong with white working class lives.

You're in for a bit of a surprise if you think the Brexit you voted for will open up immigration; in reality many of those people you've voted with have been emboldened to spout their racist, xenophobic views in public and demand an insular, inward looking Britain under the guise of faux nationalism
 
things should come to a head this week in Barcelona. ball in reg govt's court. either it declares ind formally and gets closed down AND sent to jail OR it caves in and gets accused of treachery by 2m Catalans (some of whose more excitable members may take up direct action and even violence). An English teacher friend of mine is supposed to be coming over with a class of art students later in the week and asked how safe things are with the police. I went ER...
 
I see the Catalans were protesting outside the Spanish embassy in London last night when I drove past. It was about some political prisoners I think..?
 
yes, 2 of the main organisers of the pro-IND campaign have been sent to jail for sedition

it's massive news here

tomorrow, the reg govt is expected to make an announcement on whether it will declare indepdendence from Spain

and soon after that (if it happens) the Sp will abolish the reg govt....

then it's showtime...
 
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