Lest we not forget..

I know this is a touchy subject, thus I'll try to tread lightly here. But I'm trying to understand exactly what "justice" means.

Is it figuring out the finer details of how the crush occurred and injuries were subsequently handled? And if so, is there an expectation that someone, somewhere (stadium, police or medical personnel) will be somehow punished?

Or is it doing something to ensure no repeats of the situation? Seems to me the answer is simple: all-seater stadiums (and why you didn't already have those in 1989 is a mystery to me!), along with proper policing/stewarding, which is standard practice nowadays.
 
Morbyd said:
I know this is a touchy subject, thus I'll try to tread lightly here. But I'm trying to understand exactly what "justice" means.

Is it figuring out the finer details of how the crush occurred and injuries were subsequently handled? And if so, is there an expectation that someone, somewhere (stadium, police or medical personnel) will be somehow punished?
Click to expand...

Its in those two links above. But in a nut shell the 96 who died were originally blamed for the tragedy, there were numerous cover ups and lies told to ensure the truth never came out and the real culprits brought to justice (ie the authorities) Alot of the families still dont know exactly what happened to their loved ones, how they died, why they died etc etc.

It's not about compensation, its about finding out what truly happened, and people being held accountable. Many, many people are still haunted by what happened, and many families still grieve not knowing what happened to their loved ones.

See below for a list of the victims, note the age of some of them :cry:

John Alfred Anderson (62)
Thomas Howard (39)
Colin Mark Ashcroft (19)
Thomas Anthony Howard (14)
James Gary Aspinall (15)
Eric George Hughes (42)
Kester Roger Marcus Ball (16)
Alan Johnston (29)
Gerard Bernard Patrick Baron (67)
Christine Anne Jones (27)
Simon Bell (17)
Gary Philip Jones (19)
Barry Sidney Bennett (26)
Richard Jones (25)
David John Benson (22)
Nicholas Peter Joynes (27)
David William Birtle (22)
Anthony Peter Kelly (29)
Tony Bland (22)
Michael David Kelly (39)
Paul David Brady (21)
Carl David Lewis (19)
Andrew Mark Brookes (26)
David William Mather (19)
Carl Brown (19)
Brian Christopher Mathews (39)
David Steven Brown (25)
Francis Joseph McAllister (27)
Henry Thomas Burke (47)
John McBrien (19)
Peter Andrew Burkett (24)
Marion Hazel McCabe (21)
Paul William Carlile (19)
Joseph Daniel McCarthy (21)
Raymond Thomas Chapman (50)
Peter McDonnell (21)
Gary Christopher Church (19)
Alan McGlone (29)
Joseph Clark (29)
Keith McGrath (17)
Paul Clark (19)
Paul Brian Murray (14)
Gary Collins (22)
Lee Nicol (14)
Stephen Paul Copoc (20)
Stephen Francis O'Neill (17)
Tracey Elizabeth Cox (23)
Jonathon Owens (19)
James Philip Delaney (19)
William Roy Pemberton (23)
Christopher Barry Devonside (19)
Carl William Rimmer (21)
Christopher Edwards (29)
David George Rimmer (39)
Vincent Michael Fitzsimmons (34)
Graham John Roberts (24)
Thomas Steven Fox (21)
Steven Joseph Robinson (17)
Jon-Paul Gilhooley (10)
Henry Charles Rogers (17)
Barry Glover (27)
Colin Andrew Hugh William Sefton (23)
Ian Thomas Glover (20)
Inger Shah (39)
Derrick George Godwin (24)
Paula Ann Smith (26)
Roy Harry Hamilton (34)
Adam Edward Spearritt (14)
Philip Hammond (14)
Philip John Steele (15)
Eric Hankin (33)
David Leonard Thomas (23)
Gary Harrison (27)
Patrik John Thompson (35)
Stephen Francis Harrison (31)
Peter Reuben Thompson (30)
Peter Andrew Harrison (15)
Stuart Paul William Thompson (17)
David Hawley (39)
Peter Francis Tootle (21)
James Robert Hennessy (29)
Christopher James Traynor (26)
Paul Anthony Hewitson (26)
Martin Kevin Traynor (16)
Carl Darren Hewitt (17)
Kevin Tyrrell (15)
Nicholas Michael Hewitt (16)
Colin Wafer (19)
Sarah Louise Hicks (19)
Ian David Whelan (19)
Victoria Jane Hicks (15)
Martin Kenneth Wild (29)
Gordon Rodney Horn (20)
Kevin Daniel Williams (15)
Arthur Horrocks (41)
Graham John Wright (17)

Trevor Hicks lost his 2 daughters, Sarah and Victoria aged 19 and 15. You cant begin to imagine what he and his family have, and are currently going through. He and many more families :cry:
 
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John, for me it's like this.

The people responsible (on an indivdual basis) for the disaster and the tragedy - two very separate things - will never be truly brought to account for their actions.

the likes of Duckenfield, mackerell, dr. Popper, syorks police, swfc just have to carry that burden around with them forever. They've got off lightly if you ask me.

Justice to me means the truth, it means full disclosure, it means for the first time the overwhelming and systematic illegal cover up by those culpable can finally be exposed. It means, as Liam says, a serious investigation looking at all the facts behind the deaths. Essentially, all deaths were lumped together, for conveience, when each one was subject to different circumstances. It was a coroner's equivalent of a mass grave, even john doe's get better treatment.

the Injustice here is as much vested in the fact this a) happened and b) they got away with it, but that the legal process was a whitewash, barely scratching the surface of wha happened.

The disaster and the legal injustice tend to make me so angry, I can barely think about it.
But it is the tragedy that stings most, the fans were basically just left to die, so many could have been saved, the equipment was there to help. This part just makes me really very sad. :cry:
 
there needs to be full closure for the families to even begin to move on but they will never get that while questions remain unanswered about the police coverup

It's a disgrace that they have had to fight so hard for justice and a disgrace too that The Sun was never held to account in any courtroom for what it said
 
Side issue but the truth, when finally disclosed, will also show the likes of kelvin Mackenzie and Bernard ingham up for the brainless mugs they are.

Incredibly, in spite of overwhelming/indisputable evidence against what they believed ,to the point of mockery, both still standby their opinions. C@nts.
 
Ok, got it.

The video I've seen on the incident seemed to settle certain aspects of it as fact - the overcrowding, the crush, etc. I hadn't realized so many of the details were under question, nor that the medical response had been so woeful.

I wonder what kind of true disclosure you can have at this point, 21 years after the fact.
 
grego said:
Side issue but the truth, when finally disclosed, will also show the likes of kelvin Mackenzie and Bernard ingham up for the brainless mugs they are.

Incredibly, in spite of overwhelming/indisputable evidence against what they believed ,to the point of mockery, both still standby their opinions. C@nts.
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Reading the Guardian article you linked above, it looks like the truth will be disclosed in the not too distant future. I was pleasantly suprised to read Phil Scraton is on the committee, what he doesnt know about it isnt worth knowing.

As per your post above Greg, the likes of Mackenzie and Bernard will take the truth to their graves, sadly though do you think they will ever be held accountable :confused: :?: I don't :(
 
Morbyd said:
Ok, got it.

The video I've seen on the incident seemed to settle certain aspects of it as fact - the overcrowding, the crush, etc. I hadn't realized so many of the details were under question, nor that the medical response had been so woeful.

I wonder what kind of true disclosure you can have at this point, 21 years after the fact.
Click to expand...

I think for most you never have disclosure, but knowing what truly happened to your loved one makes it a little easier to lay them to rest.

If you are interested to know what really happened, try reading Hillsborough 'the truth' by Phi Scraton, a must read.
 
think for most you never have disclosure, but knowing what truly happened to your loved one makes it a little easier to lay them to rest.

^^^^^^^
RIP The 96


"the truth will out"
 
Morbyd said:
Ok, got it.

The video I've seen on the incident seemed to settle certain aspects of it as fact - the overcrowding, the crush, etc. I hadn't realized so many of the details were under question, nor that the medical response had been so woeful.

I wonder what kind of true disclosure you can have at this point, 21 years after the fact.
Click to expand...

the disaster itself can be broken down almost anatomically. capacity of the pens, number of people in there, ability of barriers to withstand pressure, etc, etc......so what happened is blatant really in terms of why there was a disaster.

one of the great myths about hillsborough is ticketless fans. the official taylor inquiry into the disaster made it clear that even at the time of worst crushing (just after 3pm), using cctv and specialists, they were able to place the amount of people on the terrace as somewhere just under full capacity. it was simply the layout of the pens, the overcrowding in these pens and the inadequacy of the barriers (SWFC didn't even have a safety certificate) that led to disaster.

the tragedy is that once the disaster happened....... (the police first of all blamed the fans (the match commander duckenfield lied to FA boss graham kelly that LFC fans had broken down a gate that he had, in fact ordered open. kelly told the press, the smear campaign was already done before anyone had even died.).......... there was no emergency response.

- there were 42 ambulances outside the ground waiting to come to help, only one was -allowed because police orders were that there was a riot happening.
- fans trying to take the injured to these ambulances on billboards were stopped by a line of police on the pitch
- instead bodies were taken to a random place (a gym at the ground) and in essence, left to die. only 14 of the 96 victims made it to hospital.
- the truth is that whether you lived or died was by chance almost. many people woke up to find themselves in a row of dead bodies behind the leppings lane terrace. they'd literally been left for dead

this is the tragedy. the victims needed simple things like breathing masks with oxygen or tracheotomies, this help was little more than 100 metres away outside the ground.
 
weloveliam@space said:
........in a nut shell the 96 who died were originally blamed for the tragedy
Click to expand...


Especially by "The Sun" which ran some of the most particularly disgusting, unnecessary and disrespectful pieces of "journalism" ever seen.


As a result, this rag still (rightly) has very poor distribution and sales around the city.
 
Morbyd said:
I know this is a touchy subject, thus I'll try to tread lightly here. But I'm trying to understand exactly what "justice" means.

Is it figuring out the finer details of how the crush occurred and injuries were subsequently handled? And if so, is there an expectation that someone, somewhere (stadium, police or medical personnel) will be somehow punished?

Or is it doing something to ensure no repeats of the situation? Seems to me the answer is simple: all-seater stadiums (and why you didn't already have those in 1989 is a mystery to me!), along with proper policing/stewarding, which is standard practice nowadays.
Click to expand...

Great article here regarding the reasoning to release the Tory Documents. This sums it up very well with a great summarisation on the cover up that followed and the lies that were told.

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opi...ed-before-Tory-leader-dies-article800222.html
 
It's been good to see teams from all over the globe showing and paying their respects to the 96. I've seen banners from teams in England, Germany, Italy, Asia this weekend.
Can't make it to Anfield today as working down south. :(

JFT96
 
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